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Post by The Captain on May 13, 2015 21:28:26 GMT -5
Randle-El, you are correct. That is my story about X-Men #13.
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Post by Randle-El on May 13, 2015 21:48:10 GMT -5
Randle-El, you are correct. That is my story about X-Men #13. That was a good story. I don't know anything else about your wife, but based on that story alone she sounds like a great woman. As for the topic at hand -- there's a lot I could write on the subject, but I'll just add this thought: There's a lot of things that humans do that aren't "natural", but that doesn't seem stop us from trying be more than what we are. |
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Post by Phil Maurice on May 13, 2015 21:52:36 GMT -5
Well, my right hand and I have been together a long time now...   |
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2015 23:00:15 GMT -5
The entire establishment and history of marriage is pretty screwed up, and what things "used to be" isn't better than people (women in particular) being free to do what they want, including leave a loveless or abusive marriage. And remember, back in the Old Testament times "Death Do Us Part" didn't have to mean grow old and die together, it could have just as easily meant the husband is tired of feeding the wife and decided to have her executed in the town square for boring him by not putting up enough of a fight while he raped her. Or too much of a fight. Or for birthing a girl instead of a boy. Or any reason really. I don't think there was a time when people were just happy together forever. I think many relationships were always troubled, there was just a time where a woman's choices were deal with it or beg for pennies in the gutter. Or more recently, work in a sweatshop.
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Post by DE Sinclair on May 14, 2015 8:43:55 GMT -5
The thought that listening to our instincts by choice and listening to the ones we want somehow makes us "as bad" as animals is our own contrived narcissism. As spoon said just be honest with who you are. You are going to have good and bad stories of marriage. It takes great effort to stick with one person, whether it's sexual impulses or not being able to happy with that person anymore. Most animals don't have this burden as their instinct dictates their life and so to a point are satisfied with their life till death. Just like them this could be your only life. Biological instinct drives us to live in that manner. Philosophy, religion, and the social constructs steaming from these are why we tell ourselves otherwise. It's why many people restrict themselves from a selfish life. Just because we may not have been designed to be monogamous doesn't mean we can't. And just because some choose not to doesn't make them any more animal. We all are. Whether or not it's ok for someone to choose not to be monogamous depends on the other person(s) in the relationship. If both people in the relationship feel the same way and agree not to be monogamous, then that's up to them. If one of them decides on their own that monogamy is unnatural and it's ok to follow their instincts in secret, then that person isn't an animal. They are, however, a lying scumbag who doesn't mind hurting other people for their own selfish enjoyment and rationalizing it as "evolutionary instincts".
Whether or not we are "meant" to be monogamous has no bearing on lying and hurting other people.
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on May 14, 2015 9:15:33 GMT -5
The thought that listening to our instincts by choice and listening to the ones we want somehow makes us "as bad" as animals is our own contrived narcissism. As spoon said just be honest with who you are. You are going to have good and bad stories of marriage. It takes great effort to stick with one person, whether it's sexual impulses or not being able to happy with that person anymore. Most animals don't have this burden as their instinct dictates their life and so to a point are satisfied with their life till death. Just like them this could be your only life. Biological instinct drives us to live in that manner. Philosophy, religion, and the social constructs steaming from these are why we tell ourselves otherwise. It's why many people restrict themselves from a selfish life. Just because we may not have been designed to be monogamous doesn't mean we can't. And just because some choose not to doesn't make them any more animal. We all are. Whether or not it's ok for someone to choose not to be monogamous depends on the other person(s) in the relationship. If both people in the relationship feel the same way and agree not to be monogamous, then that's up to them. If one of them decides on their own that monogamy is unnatural and it's ok to follow their instincts in secret, then that person isn't an animal. They are, however, a lying scumbag who doesn't mind hurting other people for their own selfish enjoyment and rationalizing it as "evolutionary instincts".
Whether or not we are "meant" to be monogamous has no bearing on lying and hurting other people.
Totally agree with you DE and looking at my comment, I may have assumed that was implied. Yes the two involved should agree that is how they want their relationship. Animals mating is consensual in that instinct drives them both to want the same thing, be it procreation or simple sex. Though without presently researching it, I don't recall any other but our own species having issues with non consensual sex. Though I guess there could be a case made that instinct doesn't mean choice. I guess I kind of got off track with what the OP was asking as far as the rate of breakup and divorce and infidelity. I think that speaks a lot of our species as what really is natural, be it morally wrong or right. If the sexual drive is that strong then denying it can cause worse problems maybe then not. Our institution, for however far back as it goes, of marriage doesn't seem to jive with what the instinct/brain is striving for. Are we really bettering ourselves with monogamy if it does cause the turmoil that it does? I think that's where my previous post meandered from. |
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Post by DE Sinclair on May 14, 2015 10:18:21 GMT -5
I probably got off on a bit of a rant myself. It's just that I've heard guys use that sort of thing too often as an excuse for cheating, abandoning their families & children, and other bad behavior (which I know is not what you were doing). In my mind, as far as excuses go, that ranks right up there with "the devil made me do it". Complete BS.
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Post by Rob Allen on May 14, 2015 14:29:16 GMT -5
We may be the only species that has sex for any reason other than how good it feels. Dolphins do too, or so I've read. Dolphins have sex for other reasons? Can you elaborate? |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on May 14, 2015 17:03:02 GMT -5
The thought that listening to our instincts by choice and listening to the ones we want somehow makes us "as bad" as animals is our own contrived narcissism. As spoon said just be honest with who you are. You are going to have good and bad stories of marriage. It takes great effort to stick with one person, whether it's sexual impulses or not being able to happy with that person anymore. Most animals don't have this burden as their instinct dictates their life and so to a point are satisfied with their life till death. Just like them this could be your only life. Biological instinct drives us to live in that manner. Philosophy, religion, and the social constructs steaming from these are why we tell ourselves otherwise. It's why many people restrict themselves from a selfish life. Just because we may not have been designed to be monogamous doesn't mean we can't. And just because some choose not to doesn't make them any more animal. We all are. Whether or not it's ok for someone to choose not to be monogamous depends on the other person(s) in the relationship. If both people in the relationship feel the same way and agree not to be monogamous, then that's up to them. If one of them decides on their own that monogamy is unnatural and it's ok to follow their instincts in secret, then that person isn't an animal. They are, however, a lying scumbag who doesn't mind hurting other people for their own selfish enjoyment and rationalizing it as "evolutionary instincts".
Whether or not we are "meant" to be monogamous has no bearing on lying and hurting other people.
I disagree only in that every open relationship I've ever seen, no matter how wrll planned and communicated, has gone down in flames with very hurt feelings on every side. As much as man craves sex, he also craves love, and I don't think he can get and hold on to both without monogamy. |
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Post by Rob Allen on May 14, 2015 17:40:18 GMT -5
I disagree only in that every open relationship I've ever seen, no matter how wrll planned and communicated, has gone down in flames with very hurt feelings on every side. As much as man craves sex, he also craves love, and I don't think he can get and hold on to both without monogamy. I know people in successful non-monogamous relationships (25+ years), and have heard of and read about many more. The idea that monogamy is the norm, the default style of relationship, is pretty new in cultural history. It's amazing how many people don't realize that - they really think most people have been monogamous forever. People had sex, and love, without even thinking about monogamy for most of human history. Read Sex at Dawn by Christopher Ryan and Cacilda Jethá for a better picture of sexuality at the dawn of history. The last chapter of the book goes a bit off the rails, but it's very good up till then. |
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2015 18:57:33 GMT -5
I disagree only in that every open relationship I've ever seen, no matter how wrll planned and communicated, has gone down in flames with very hurt feelings on every side. As much as man craves sex, he also craves love, and I don't think he can get and hold on to both without monogamy. Every committed relationship I've ever seen has resulted exactly the same though. My maternal and paternal grandparents both divorced. My parents divorced. All my moms siblings divorced. As far as I can tell so have all her cousins and her one uncle I have any real recollection of. My father's brother never divorced, because he wasn't married, but he's no longer with the mother of his daughter. My cousin is split from the mother of his kid, and my sister is estranged, soon to be divorced. |
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Post by kurrgomaul on May 14, 2015 19:05:27 GMT -5
Whether or not it's ok for someone to choose not to be monogamous depends on the other person(s) in the relationship. If both people in the relationship feel the same way and agree not to be monogamous, then that's up to them. If one of them decides on their own that monogamy is unnatural and it's ok to follow their instincts in secret, then that person isn't an animal. They are, however, a lying scumbag who doesn't mind hurting other people for their own selfish enjoyment and rationalizing it as "evolutionary instincts".
Whether or not we are "meant" to be monogamous has no bearing on lying and hurting other people.
I disagree only in that every open relationship I've ever seen, no matter how wrll planned and communicated, has gone down in flames with very hurt feelings on every side. As much as man craves sex, he also craves love, and I don't think he can get and hold on to both without monogamy. I think a lot of guys just crave sex to be honest ha ha. A lot of guys I know at least...that brings up a good question though, why is it usually guys being portrayed as players? women cheat too, women want sex from time to time just like men do. it's a stereotype that it's only men who care about sex, but it seems like it's more common to see a guy with multiple female partners instaed of the other way around but why is that? Why is there a sister-wives show but no brother-husbands ha ha |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on May 14, 2015 19:27:21 GMT -5
I disagree only in that every open relationship I've ever seen, no matter how wrll planned and communicated, has gone down in flames with very hurt feelings on every side. As much as man craves sex, he also craves love, and I don't think he can get and hold on to both without monogamy. I know people in successful non-monogamous relationships (25+ years), and have heard of and read about many more. The idea that monogamy is the norm, the default style of relationship, is pretty new in cultural history. It's amazing how many people don't realize that - they really think most people have been monogamous forever. People had sex, and love, without even thinking about monogamy for most of human history. Read Sex at Dawn by Christopher Ryan and Cacilda Jethá for a better picture of sexuality at the dawn of history. The last chapter of the book goes a bit off the rails, but it's very good up till then. I suppose it depends upon which history you're referring to. Extra-material sexual relationships were common in much of European history, but, going back two thousand years, marital relationships were still perceived of as the ideal. I don't deny that there are situations in which non-monogamous relationships can be the ideal, nor do I deny the possibility that there are cultures where this has worked, but it's not a particularly good match in a society in which the very reason people struggle with monogamy is largely self-absorption. People want to satisfy their own wants and, therefore, are likely to have even less of what it takes to succeed with multiple partnerships, or one open partnership. It takes a lot of maturity, understanding, and selflessness to participate in such a relationship. There's no room for wounded egos or "me first" mentalities. I could never be a polygamist, though I don't deny that polygamy CAN work. However, every person I've known who has claimed that polygamy was right for them was wrong, largely because they went in thinking "more sex and attention for me" without seriously considering the other side of that coin. |
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2015 20:24:48 GMT -5
I disagree only in that every open relationship I've ever seen, no matter how wrll planned and communicated, has gone down in flames with very hurt feelings on every side. As much as man craves sex, he also craves love, and I don't think he can get and hold on to both without monogamy. I think a lot of guys just crave sex to be honest ha ha. A lot of guys I know at least...that brings up a good question though, why is it usually guys being portrayed as players? women cheat too, women want sex from time to time just like men do. it's a stereotype that it's only men who care about sex, but it seems like it's more common to see a guy with multiple female partners instaed of the other way around but why is that? Why is there a sister-wives show but no brother-husbands ha ha Because of Bronze Age patriarchy where a promiscuous man is successful in conquest but a promiscuous woman is a worthless piece of property that a father couldn't successfully pawn off to a husband without a large dowry. |
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on May 15, 2015 8:35:46 GMT -5
Dolphins do too, or so I've read. Dolphins have sex for other reasons? Can you elaborate? Only that I've read a number of times that Dolphins are the only species of animal, other than us, that have sex for pleasure, not simply to procreate. I've also read online that male Dolphins will, on occasion, gang-rape females. I'd take that secondary "fact" with a large pinch of salt, but I'm pretty sure that they do have sex purely for pleasure, just like we do. EDIT: These links seem to support that Dolphins, like us, do indeed have sex for pleasure (at least, there is copulation between the male and female of the species for reasons other than reproduction)... scienceline.ucsb.edu/getkey.php?key=1132www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/13/sex-for-pleasure_n_1090811.htmlThe wikipedia article on Animal Sexual Behavior, seems to say that Pigs do too... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_sexual_behaviour |
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