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Post by Nowhere Man on Oct 4, 2014 7:53:03 GMT -5
Not to jump ahead, but I read FF #12 this morning (FF vs the Hulk). This is my favorite issue so far and it's the first Marvel issue to not only guest-star another lead, but bring in that leads supporting cast. It seems that this was when Stan and Jack decided to ramp up the shared universe aspect of the line.
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Post by tolworthy on Oct 4, 2014 10:16:12 GMT -5
Tolworthy, I appreciate your love for the FF ( I love them too) but you make statements like "Another lovely realistic touch" and "Another fascinating subplot is the gradual reveal of how superhero science works. The reason the wall does not collapse will be finally revealed in FF 249, with major implications for the nature of their powers and through that of their psychological inner worlds". Clearly, no one can reconcile the events in the imaginary world of comics and the real world with any consistency, so why bother? Just enjoy the fantasy of the medium. All you can hope for is that the writers stay true to the science and parameters that they established within the stories. Why bother? For the same reason I read any fiction: to explore the real world. There are two ways (at least) to approach fiction: escaping and exploring. it seems to me that most people view comics as escapism, and that's fine. But for me they are about exploring the real world. Take the movie "Captain America: the Winter Soldier" for example. I watched that last night, and it's all about extreme versions of the NSA and Homeland Security. It was about exchanging freedom for "safety". These are real world issues. They matter. They are far more important than flying suits or thumb drives that work first time. Fiction matters. It presents important real world issues in a heightened way. FF issue 7 is not about robots and flying saucers. It's about dictatorship and whether we can trust the military and our governments. it's about how easily we hate people, and how (in the last frame) even the good guys can lie. These things matter. The macguffin of how we get there is trivial. Having said that, I love the FF because even the science fiction make sense. Carl Sagan and Arthur C Clarke wrote books about the possibility of meeting a more advanced race. Sagan and Clarke were not idiots: what they suggested is a realistic possibility, so it's worth exploring. The Fantastic Four simply takes the realistic implications of that. I can show how every single sci-fi concept in the FF is a logical result of that simple premise. Now I agree that most comics are very hard to believe. Secret identities for example are absurd IMO. But the FF was different. I have examined the early issues in great detail, and up to issue 321 everything could take place in the real world. Every huge event is covered by plausible deniability, and every piece of superhero science follows logically from the single alien premise. But most important, it is not about the super powers. It's about the real world: about relationships, about how governments behave, about different approaches to power (Reed's technological fixes versus Sue's intuition for example). it's about self belief (or lack of it in Ben's case), how we treat others (see Reed and Ben), how we treat outsiders (see Sue and everyone), things that matter. The King summed it up best:
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Post by Icctrombone on Oct 4, 2014 10:33:34 GMT -5
Tolworthy, I appreciate your love for the FF ( I love them too) but you make statements like "Another lovely realistic touch" and "Another fascinating subplot is the gradual reveal of how superhero science works. The reason the wall does not collapse will be finally revealed in FF 249, with major implications for the nature of their powers and through that of their psychological inner worlds". Clearly, no one can reconcile the events in the imaginary world of comics and the real world with any consistency, so why bother? Just enjoy the fantasy of the medium. All you can hope for is that the writers stay true to the science and parameters that they established within the stories. Take the movie "Captain America: the Winter Soldier" for example. I watched that last night, and it's all about extreme versions of the NSA and Homeland Security. It was about exchanging freedom for "safety". These are real world issues. They matter. They are far more important than flying suits or thumb drives that work first time. Fiction matters. It presents important real world issues in a heightened way. I wouldn't compare the Winter Soldier to FF #7. Movies involve suspension of disbelief but they are mostly based in reality whereas FF #7 involved many impossibilities. It's apples and Oranges. The FF book is mostly escapism.Having said that, I love the FF because even the science fiction make sense. Carl Sagan and Arthur C Clarke wrote books about the possibility of meeting a more advanced race. Sagan and Clarke were not idiots: what they suggested is a realistic possibility, so it's worth exploring. The Fantastic Four simply takes the realistic implications of that. I can show how every single sci-fi concept in the FF is a logical result of that simple premise. Maybe Sagan and Clarke were not idiots but it's 2014, where are these advanced races ?
Now I agree that most comics are very hard to believe. Secret identities for example are absurd IMO. But the FF was different. I have examined the early issues in great detail, and up to issue 321 everything could take place in the real world. Man, I can't believe you really believe that everything in FF #1-321 could take place in the real world. Just starting with the premise of acquiring powers from deadly radiation everything falls apart.
The King summed it up best: I don't believe Kirby was referring to the Sci-fi elements but the interpersonal relationships. THAT I believe is real and the reason the Four characters were so popular with the readers. You meet people like the four in real life.
Tol, I'm not trying to bash or put you down, just saying that I disagree. This is all make believe fantasy. Nothing more.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Oct 4, 2014 18:41:30 GMT -5
Journey Into Mystery #85 (Thor story)
Plot by Stan Lee Script by Larry Lieber Pencils by Jack Kirby Inks by Dick Ayers
Cover:
Our first glimpse of Loki shows him all horny (his hat) on top of a rather phallic building looking down on Thor. Lot of copy on this one and it's not terribly dynamic. Add to that a passel of grey and you don't have the best cover to trumpet the first appearance of one of Marvel's most important villains.
The Story:
We open with a splash that has Thor and Loki facing off atop a billboard. Loki has fog coming from his hand and surrounding Thor while our hero plays with his hammer. This is not a dynamic splash, following from a kind of boring cover. Jack isn't setting the world on fire with this one.
We turn the page and get our first look at Asgard and Bifrost. Loki has been trapped in a tree by the “Gods” ages ago. Using his mystic powers he “tricks” Heimdall into unwittingly setting him free. We find that Thor is responsible for Loki's captivity, that he's been missing for ages (how Loki knows this when he's been stuck in a tree is a mystery) and that Loki has a mental link with Thor's hammer. Loki locates Thor and skips down the Bifrost to gain his revenge. Upon reaching Midgard, Loki turns into Leonard Nimoy and goes to where Thor was. Finding Thor gone, Loki turns some people into “negatives” to attract Thor's attention. He does get the attention of Don Blake and Jane Foster. Blake ditches Foster and changes to Thor. He then uses his hammer to throw out “anti-matter particles” to change the negatives back to positives. Deus ex Mjolnir.
Having been temporarily thwarted, Loki reveals himself. Jane Foster, who had just been mooning over Thor moons over Loki. Thor thinks of him in terms of ancient legends, but recognizes him as Loki...maybe it's the horns. Loki challenges Thor to a battle which he must accept because...reasons. Loki goes off on a flying carpet while Thor uses Mjolnir as a helicopter. Loki uses his power and the sun shining off the twirling hammer to hypnotize Thor. He then tricks Thor into leaving his hammer and orders him to let the beasts loose from the zoo. Thor, of course, turns back to Blake and that breaks the hypnosis. He then regains his hammer and changes to Thor in public, as he is want to do. Loki rides a flock of pigeons to a theater and attacks Thor with a curtain (really) which is defeated by Thor breath (really). We then go into the subway, where Loki throws innocents onto the tracks. Thor saves them by lifting the tracks and the train passes over.
Loki makes a winged advertising horse come to life and rides him away, before being subdued when Thor throws a section of pipe that covers Loki and sends him into the water. Apparently Loki is powerless in water. Thor takes a wet Loki to the top of the (poorly rendered) Empire State Building and attaches him to his hammer to throw him back to Asgard. It's not really clear how he knows about Asgard. Loki is deposited in front of Odin, Balder and Tyr before Mjolnir returns to Thor in the nick of time.
Thoughts…
Not a lot of Don Blake in this one. Jane is a mercurial little minx. She suffers from the falling in love with every man she sees that was so prevalent in the Silver Age.
It's pretty clear that Stan and Jack are just making up powers as they go along and need something. Thor at this point isn't much more than a Marvel version of the Silver-Age Superman power-wise. If the plot requires it...he can do it.
It's equally unclear as to what Thor/Blake knows or doesn't know about Asgard, the Norse God or his own identity. I suspect it has a lot to do with the creators not actually knowing either.
Asgard and Heimdall appear. Odin, Balder and Tyr make one-panel cameos.
Loki seems to be able to make all kinds of stuff fly. Why can't he fly himself. Seems like that should work. He does have some great dialogue though...”Begone Pigeons!”
Loki is powerless underwater. However, he and Thor can both speak underwater. Odd. Which leads to the question that if Loki is powerless when wet, why doesn't Thor just whip up a rainstorm every time they fight. Methinks this won't last.
The Story. While far from a classic that befits the introduction of Loki, this is miles beyond the last issue and by far the strongest Thor story so far. Lot of fairly hokey stuff, but it's mostly magic based so it's easier to give it a pass than the comic book “science.” Mediocre is better than actively bad.
The Art: Another nice outing. Still waiting for Kirby to really cut loose, but there wasn't much here that was bad. Still a couple cuts above what we're getting in Fantastic Four.
The toll: Subway tracks. A theater curtain. A billboard or two. A big section of metal pipe.
Grade for historic importance: A- First Loki and Asgard. Cameos by the Asgardian Gods. Story – C + Art – B
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Post by Nowhere Man on Oct 5, 2014 3:22:06 GMT -5
The early Thor stories were a tad mediocre (the non-Kirby issues are some of my least favorite of the Marvel Age) but like you say, this was basically a rough version of Silver Age Superman with North mythological trappings until it all seemed t click in Kirby's head around issue #97. Once Tales of Asgard starts, the series is every bit as good as FF and Spider-Man as far as I'm concerned. (Prince Valiant on steroids?)
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Post by Icctrombone on Oct 5, 2014 5:28:32 GMT -5
The early Thor stories were a tad mediocre (the non-Kirby issues are some of my least favorite of the Marvel Age) but like you say, this was basically a rough version of Silver Age Superman with North mythological trappings until it all seemed t click in Kirby's head around issue #97. Once Tales of Asgard starts, the series is every bit as good as FF and Spider-Man as far as I'm concerned. (Prince Valiant on steroids?) It would be interesting to find out who it was that really came up with the idea for Tales of Asgard. I love Kirby but, man, so many people just totally dismiss Stan Lee from the story elements.
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Post by Nowhere Man on Oct 5, 2014 5:32:13 GMT -5
I'm actually Stan fan, but it's been fairly well documented that it was Kirby who had the background in mythology and did most, if not all, of the research into Norse mythology for Thor. I do think Stan had a lot of influence into the Shakespearean trappings, though.
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Post by Icctrombone on Oct 5, 2014 5:50:23 GMT -5
Didn't know that, but it gets tiring to see everyone give the artist working with Lee all the credit. They do the same with Spider-man and Ditko. Kirby and Ditko were very important but without Stan Lee the Marvel line would have disappeared.
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Post by Nowhere Man on Oct 5, 2014 6:46:49 GMT -5
It's just my hunch that Stan had more to do with certain series than others. I think he played a much bigger part on FF and Spider-Man than Thor. Given Kirby's history and where he went with The Fourth World, which was basically where he would have taken the Thor series if he had complete creative control, I'm fairly confident that Kirby was in charge with that series. Anytime a series is particularly witty or funny, I think that mostly has to do with Stan.
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Post by Icctrombone on Oct 5, 2014 7:03:34 GMT -5
It was both of them that built the Marvel universe that we all know. I Love Kirby but he was saying ,at the end, that he created ALL the characters. As for the Spider-man, when John Romita became the artist, the book became more popular.
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Post by benday-dot on Oct 5, 2014 15:30:29 GMT -5
It's true it was a partnership. It takes at least 2 to tango in putting together a comic. However, it has been largely established that, in accordance with Marvel Method, that Ditko did do the major plotting on Spider-Man and contributed more than did Lee to the tenor of the comic in its first couple years. When Ditko left and Romita took over Lee's role increased and accordingly the feel of the comics altered. It became less dark and interior and became more poppy and perhaps a little more generic. And yes more popular as you mention.
And likewise on the FF and Thor, especially in its more Asgardian and myth centric threads, Kirby is suspected of doing most of the plotting and being responsible for the more creative aspects. I'm not saying Lee with his dialoguing and position in editorial was a non-presence, because that would be far from the truth. Lee was crucial, but as far creative input goes, in the Marvel Method, the artists came first.
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Post by Rob Allen on Oct 6, 2014 10:57:49 GMT -5
From what I've read, my impression is that once Stan was convinced that you knew what you were doing and would produce professional-quality output, he pretty much left you alone. He had enough to do, he didn't feel the need to micromanage.
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Post by tolworthy on Oct 6, 2014 20:47:25 GMT -5
From what I've read, my impression is that once Stan was convinced that you knew what you were doing and would produce professional-quality output, he pretty much left you alone. He had enough to do, he didn't feel the need to micromanage. Exactly. I don't understand the need to have Stan provide the same input as Jack (or Steve or whoever) on every book. It makes no sense to me. Jack Kirby was prolific, but even at his peak he could "only" produce a book a week. Stan had to put his mark on eight books, plus herd all the cats, plus turn a one office company with no respect into a global powerhouse. And we want him to invent every idea that passes his desk as well? Isn't it enough that Stan took the work of some of the most talented creators in the history of comics and actually improved it? Isn't it enough that he is the foundation and the door and the roof of the house of ideas? Yet we want him to be the bricks and mortar and fill every room as well! Do we really think that creating a successful business is as easy as hiring good people then taking the biggest cut? If that was true than Simon and Kirby and a dozen other top artists who created their own publishers would all be raking in the cash from movie cameos now. But creating a business is darned hard, every bit as hard as drawing a powerful page. To be able to do that and write top class dialog, and even throw out finished scripts at the same time, is amazing. To me the idea that building a business is easy or uncreative is just as offensive as the idea that Jack Kirby was a replaceable hack. Creativity is not limited to what we see on the page, it's everything that gets the ideas into the world's heads. While it's true that the corporate world has plenty of space for parasites, it also requires miracle workers. Just look at the current Marvel movies: these are corporate productions, driven by endless armies of suits, yet they create world pleasers. Other armies of suits have tried and failed to do the same for decades. Easy, it ain't. We can't attribute the movies just to Robert Downey Junior, just as we can't attribute all Marvel's success to Jack Kirby, and that is not to deny they are essential and personally add billions to the bottom line. I say all this as a Fantastic Four obsessive who believes that Jack Kirby is responsible for probably 80 percent of what matters on the printed pages of my favourite comic. But we have to step back and look at the bigger picture. In my mind Stan Lee was every bit as important and creative as Jack Kirby. As Rob said, Stan was too busy (being creative) to want or need to micromanage.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Oct 7, 2014 23:16:25 GMT -5
Strange Tales 101 (Human Torch story)
Plot by Stan Lee Script by Larry Lieber Pencils by Jack Kirby Inks by Dick Ayers
Cover:
The Torch flies around a collapsing carnival ride as a mysterious dude with a gun looks on. The excess cover copy and the large gray attraction against a white background make this one less appealing than it might otherwise have been.
The Story:
We open with a 3 / 4 splash of the Torch outracing an atomic powered guided missile, because...well just because. But his flame is going to run out so he has to land and change in to his “secret identity.” Yeah...that's what I said. I'll get into this in the “thoughts” section...because there is a LOT wrong with this first couple pages. We get a nice diagram of Johnny's room...complete with a LOT of asbestos. Poor Johnny is destined to die of mesothelioma. We then get a page and half recap of the FF's origin. So three pages in to the thirteen page story...nothing has happened.
We see the Destroyer preparing to strike at the amusement park that is under construction. Simultaneously, the local newspaper publisher receives a letter from The Destroyer stating that construction on the park must stop or he'll strike. The Publisher promptly throws it away as a crank, apparently without showing it to anyone. And again, at the same time, Johnny and his friends are passing the amusement park when “an expert” is riding the roller coaster and trouble strikes. Johnny must change into the Torch without revealing his secret identity, so he causes a nearby cigarette to give off an enormous amount of smoke to cover his change. He saves the “expert rider” and people are sure it's an accident.
Meanwhile, the publisher gets another note from The Destroyer, one he finally decides to show to the owner of the amusement park. But the owner is sure it's a crank...because there's already been one accident. Serendipitously, Johnny and his friends are passing the park a few days later when more “expert” riders are trying out the parachute ride. And the tower begins to crumble. Johnny uses is powers to distract the crowd, so he can change into the Torch, weld the tower together, save the day, and then use his powers to change back.
A couple days later the newspaper prints a challenge from The Destroyer to the Torch for a showdown. The Thing cameos to try to help Johnny out...but he has to deal with this himself...because...I don't know. Johnny goes to the site of the showdown and stumbles into a trap where he's doused with liquid foam. The Destroyer is preparing to “finish him off” when he's inexplicably frightened off by a couple of teenage friends of Johnny's. It's one thing to face a flaming super-hero. It's quite another to stand up to two scary teen-agers. Johnny has to think fast to keep his friends from discovering his secret identity. Back at his house Johnny has an epiphany. It's only the tall rides that are being sabotaged. From the top of the roller coaster he can see a Commie sub near the coast. He couldn't have seen that when he was flying around saving the “expert roller coaster rider.” The sub dives, but Johnny boils the water around it causing it to surface...and killing a LOT of fish...and I don't know why the couldn't just go deeper and out to sea. The Coast Guard (or some quasi-military outfit) capture the Commies an then The Destroyer, who turns out to be Old Man Jenkins! Oh wait. That was Scooby Doo. It's actually Charles Staunton, the publisher, who was feeding info to the Commies. He even sent the notes to himself so he wouldn't be a suspect...including the one he couldn't be bothered to tell anyone about. But the Commies were parking at his private beach and could be seen from the tall rides. And they couldn't possibly move to a different location...or come ashore after hours. So they had to have a wacky scheme. The end.
Thoughts…
Let's address the elephant in the room. Johnny Storm clearly did NOT have a secret identity to protect. I have no idea what Lieber as scripter and Lee as editor were thinking...but he didn't. Master Man pointed him out as the Torch in public in FF 3 and he appeared at the Congressional dinner in issue 7 of the FF. The dude is constantly flaming on in public. Beyond that, the story tries to shoe-horn in that Sue Storm lives in Long Island with him and is known to be Invisible Girl. And her blonde younger brother isn't going to obviously be The Human Torch. I'm not a continuity wonk. But this is just freakin' sloppy.
The Commies are back. They really haven't plagued the FF...but they have plagued the Hulk and Ant-Man. Now we have some that are so stupid they can't figure out to change info drop points or to not stop at their drop point while an amusement park is open.
And what's up with Staunton sending himself a letter that he doesn't reveal to anyone as a cover. And how come the Scooby Doo gang aren't there for the reveal of Old Man Jenkins. And why the Hell is he willing to face The Human freakin' Torch, but runs like a rabbit when two random teenagers show up.
I guess I get the Torch turning down help from the Thing. And I guess I get Ben being upset given his personality at the time. But the whole thing seems overwrought.
The cover and the splash talk about The Torch appearing courtesy of Fantastic Four Magazine. Like Martin Goodman didn't publish both books.
The Story. And...we've reached a new gold standard in bad for the Marvel Age. Seriously. This one has NO redeeming value. And it is just bad and hackneyed from every standpoint.
The Art: Is Kirby/Ayers. Not at their best. Not at their worst. The figure work and faces are better than FF 7. But there's really nothing remotely dynamic or interesting here, either.
The toll: One cigarette. Nobody knows how many boiled fish. The wall of The Destroyers home.
Grade for historic importance: C. First solo Torch story. Which isn't that big a deal. But it is the first Marvel Age spin-off...which kind of is.
Story – D- The only thing saving it from an F is that I know there has to be worse to come. Art – C-.
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Post by Hoosier X on Oct 7, 2014 23:52:29 GMT -5
In the late 1990s, I was at the San Diego Comic-Con and Dick Ayers was on a panel. During the Q&A session, I asked about the first few issues of the Torch series in Strange Tales. I specifically asked about the whole secret identity thing and how that happened and what they were planning to do with it.
Dick Ayers got all indignant and said: "The Human Torch never had a secret identity!" and moderator Mark Evanier just went on to the next question.
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