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Post by Rob Allen on Oct 8, 2014 13:30:11 GMT -5
There's been some speculation that Jerry Siegel had more to do with the Torch series than just the two scripts he's credited with (under the pseudonym Joe Carter). The stories have Johnny living in a suburb called Glenville; Jerry grew up in a Cleveland neighborhood called Glenville. And of course Jerry was accustomed to superheroes with secret identities.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Oct 8, 2014 13:47:12 GMT -5
There's been some speculation that Jerry Siegel had more to do with the Torch series than just the two scripts he's credited with (under the pseudonym Joe Carter). The stories have Johnny living in a suburb called Glenville; Jerry grew up in a Cleveland neighborhood called Glenville. And of course Jerry was accustomed to superheroes with secret identities. Still...seems like the editor could have fixed that. Yeah...I get that Stan was really freakin' busy...but this is pretty damn blatantly out there. I've also seen some people that have problems with Johnny being a lot less brash than he is want to be. But this is pretty early on and he wasn't nearly as brash in those early FF issues as he'll be come later on. So for me that wasn't a huge problem. |
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Post by Cei-U! on Oct 8, 2014 13:55:24 GMT -5
Stan will address the "secret identity" gaffe a few issues later, lamely, after the readers bust him out over it.
Cei-U!
I summon the foreshadowing!
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Oct 8, 2014 14:00:21 GMT -5
Stan will address the "secret identity" gaffe a few issues later, lamely, after the readers bust him out over it. Cei-U! I summon the foreshadowing! I vaguely remember from the first time I suffered through the Essential Human Torch. And yeah it's lame. And nonsensical. Better to have just said, "ehhh...I was busy and screwed up." |
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Post by Nowhere Man on Oct 8, 2014 21:12:18 GMT -5
That was the last issue of Strange Tales that I read the other day. I couldn't help but chuckle, even though I've read that story once before. It's just so ridiculous that Stan ever got himself into that situation in the first place. Johnny came off looking delusional at best and the sufferer of a mental illness at worst.
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Post by tolworthy on Oct 9, 2014 10:56:00 GMT -5
There's been some speculation that Jerry Siegel had more to do with the Torch series than just the two scripts he's credited with (under the pseudonym Joe Carter). The stories have Johnny living in a suburb called Glenville; Jerry grew up in a Cleveland neighborhood called Glenville. And of course Jerry was accustomed to superheroes with secret identities. Fascinating - I didn't know that. Thanks! And since I take the FF far too seriously, let me defend the secret identity thing. Sure it was an accident but it fits perfectly into the events of the time and helps to make the characters three dimensional. For various reasons (detailed on my site) we can date the early Strange Tale stories to between issues 2 and 3 of the FF (even though they were published a year later). This period had to be a lot longer than the two months between publication, and a lot of stuff happened. At this point the FF were not universally loved. Some in the military would still be angry about the unauthorized launch and crash, and the public didn't know the full story of the Skrulls. There is good reason to think that the older generation was generally suspicious of the FF, whereas younger people found them cool and exciting. IMO, this generational divide is key to understanding the secret identities issue before issue 3. The generational divide was clearest in the team itself. Ben hated being The Thing. Reed would rather be in a lab than out fighting monsters. Sue is the most reluctant of all. Until issue 3 they shun publicity and keep their identities secret. But Johnny hates this: he loves his powers, and wants to show the world! This created tremendous tension in the early issues, leading to Johnny quitting the team at the end of issue 3. When we recall that the early Strange Tales stories took place between issues 2 and 3 then suddenly the secret identity makes sense. Johnny is making a token effort to keep his identity secret to please the others. But the situation is untenable and soon breaks down. Strange Tales is full of stuff like this. All the crazy stuff makes more sense when examined in detail. But I fully accept that "making sense" is the last thing most people want from comics. I feel like a party pooper when pointing out alternative views, but hey, it's what I do. |
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Oct 9, 2014 11:26:41 GMT -5
There's been some speculation that Jerry Siegel had more to do with the Torch series than just the two scripts he's credited with (under the pseudonym Joe Carter). The stories have Johnny living in a suburb called Glenville; Jerry grew up in a Cleveland neighborhood called Glenville. And of course Jerry was accustomed to superheroes with secret identities. Fascinating - I didn't know that. Thanks! And since I take the FF far too seriously, let me defend the secret identity thing. Sure it was an accident but it fits perfectly into the events of the time and helps to make the characters three dimensional. For various reasons (detailed on my site) we can date the early Strange Tale stories to between issues 2 and 3 of the FF (even though they were published a year later). This period had to be a lot longer than the two months between publication, and a lot of stuff happened. It's actually pretty clear that this story takes place after FF #3. FF #3 shows Sue showing off the brand new uniforms and it's firmly implied that they haven't debuted them. Johnny is wearing his uniform at the start of Strange Tales #101. So the entire FF, including Johnny have been publicly outed on national television by Mastermind. Not to mention Johnny's habit of flaming on in public in issues 1 and 2. |
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Post by Hoosier X on Oct 9, 2014 12:26:30 GMT -5
Somebody should talk about that lengthy note in Strange Tales #101 about how four of Johnny's high school chums know he is the Human Torch, and it also gives details about where they've all gone. (One went away to college? One is in the military? I forget the details.)
I don't have access to those stories anymore. But I've long suspected the note was written to explain the kids hanging out with Johnny in the garage in the first issue of the FF, when he flames on and flies away right in front of them.
The note explicitly says they've all been sworn to secrecy.
The early Strange Tales stories are CRAZEEE!
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Oct 9, 2014 12:51:06 GMT -5
Somebody should talk about that lengthy note in Strange Tales #101 about how four of Johnny's high school chums know he is the Human Torch, and it also gives details about where they've all gone. (One went away to college? One is in the military? I forget the details.) I don't have access to those stories anymore. But I've long suspected the note was written to explain the kids hanging out with Johnny in the garage in the first issue of the FF, when he flames on and flies away right in front of them. The note explicitly says they've all been sworn to secrecy. The early Strange Tales stories are CRAZEEE! The garage that Ben later very publicly destroys. Before Johnny very publicly flames on and flies off. Yeah the note is there. But it really doesn't help much. It's a band-aid on a hatchet wound. Ben Grimm...multiple felon. |
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Post by tolworthy on Oct 9, 2014 13:00:43 GMT -5
Not to mention Johnny's habit of flaming on in public in issues 1 and 2. We see him already in flame in public, but do we see him flaming on in public? He flames on in a private garage in front of a single person, a friend. I agree that the team didn't try super hard at secrecy, hence my point about secrecy being untenable. But having a range of secret hideouts seems to suggest that privacy was a goal. Johnny is wearing his uniform at the start of Strange Tales #101. Al the important evidence (essential plot points, characterization, etc.) indicate that ST102 took place at an earlier time. So it is essentially a flashback. There is a long tradition of giving characters their modern appearance in flashbacks: FF 126 being perhaps the best known example. |
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Oct 9, 2014 13:13:44 GMT -5
Not to mention Johnny's habit of flaming on in public in issues 1 and 2. We see him already in flame in public, but do we see him flaming on in public? He flames on in a private garage in front of a single person, a friend. I agree that the team didn't try super hard at secrecy, hence my point about secrecy being untenable. But having a range of secret hideouts seems to suggest that privacy was a goal. Johnny is wearing his uniform at the start of Strange Tales #101. Al the important evidence (essential plot points, characterization, etc.) indicate that ST102 took place at an earlier time. So it is essentially a flashback. There is a long tradition of giving characters their modern appearance in flashbacks: FF 126 being perhaps the best known example. You keep on trying to fit it in to your wild little theories. And I'll keep showing why it's silly. Because even if it is a flashback (which isn't remotely clear) it is VERY clearly a flashback that takes place after the FF are publicly shown out of costume in FF #3. |
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Post by Hoosier X on Oct 9, 2014 13:46:08 GMT -5
Johnny's identity isn't a secret. But he thinks it is!
Johnny has read too many comic books - probably lots of the Marvel Universe version of DC Comics of the 1956 to 1961 era - so the idea of a secret identity really appeals to his romantic notions of his role as the Human Torch.
And everyone humors him for six issues.
You can nit-pick it all you want but I don't get what the big deal is about Johnny's secret identity or how it was resolved in ST #106. I thought it was pretty cool! And I love the early Johnny Storm series! It's CRAZEE, fun, chaotic and exciting to #110 or so, and then it starts to slide in quality and doesn't get really bad until the Thing becomes his co-star.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Oct 9, 2014 13:58:53 GMT -5
It is what it is. From this perspective it's really silly and clearly violative of continuity. Whether that's good or bad is an individual decision.
But no...the Human Torch solo series is bad from snap to whistle. That the early issues are "better" than the later ones is damning with faint praise. It pretty clearly vies with Ant-Man and early Thor for being the worst continuing series that Marvel was doing. And in my opinion wins pretty handily.
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Post by Cei-U! on Oct 9, 2014 14:12:01 GMT -5
I have to side with Slam on this one. Interpretations and extrapolations are all well and good (and, of course, fun) but, speaking as someone who's coming to take his role as a comics historian a lot more seriously than his role as a comics fan, all that really counts is what's on the page. The Strange Tales Torch stories are clearly meant to take place after the Fantastic Four first donned their uniforms in FF #3 (in fact, if you go by costume details, they must take place after #6 when the collars narrow). To argue otherwise is to say that the creators of these stories are lying to us. I'm not crazy about that line of thinking.
Cei-U!
I summon the should-be obvious!
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Post by tolworthy on Oct 9, 2014 14:51:39 GMT -5
You keep on trying to fit it in to your wild little theories. I can see I'm annoying you. Sorry. I enjoy following your logic and seeing where it leads, but not if it bugs you. I won't push the debate any further. |
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