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Post by Slam_Bradley on May 26, 2023 7:46:15 GMT -5
Can I just say that the whole rubber mask disguise thing has always driven me nuts, even as a kid. At least the chameleon doesn't put it on over a Bat-mask with big-ass ears. But he still has every conceivable mask, hair and costume as well as just ignoring issues of height, weight and voice. Bah!! Dude must have a bag of holding to carry all that crap around. I thought about this when I saw Mission: Impossible on DVD (the series and films). I mean, it was so convenient at times, such as when Rollin Hand looked just enough like a dictator on a Caribbean island to make a skullcap and fake moustache enough. And then Rollin Hand disguised himself as Dan Briggs even though Briggs had a height difference - and probably broader shoulders. I guess I chalk it up to suspension of disbelief. But it does cross my mind. This is one of those areas where I can’t suspend my disbelief. It’s not quite as egregious with Chameleon as when Batman pulls off a rubber mask and has his bat ears under it, but it still bugs me. And it’s one of those hoary old tropes that belies everyone desperately wanting Marvel to be completely fresh and new.
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2023 7:52:54 GMT -5
I’m not quite sure how a mask can be so expressive, either. I saw an episode of the 1982 Hulk cartoon where a crook dressed up as a scientist. He puts the mask on - and the mask is one of the most expressive I’ve ever seen, even the eyebrows move. So I can understand how impossible suspension of disbelief can be.
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Post by Cei-U! on May 26, 2023 8:00:01 GMT -5
I wonder if these two stories and the two in ASM #2 were originally planned for Amazing Fantasy. Wonder no more: they were. Then the sales figures came in on AF #15 and a lightbulb went on over Martin Goodman 's mercenary lil head.
Cei-U! I summon the affirmation!
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Post by Slam_Bradley on May 26, 2023 8:56:49 GMT -5
I wonder if these two stories and the two in ASM #2 were originally planned for Amazing Fantasy. Wonder no more: they were. Then the sales figures came in on AF #15 and a lightbulb went on over Martin Goodman 's mercenary lil head.
Cei-U! I summon the affirmation!
I suspected as much, but if I'd ever read confirmation of that, I've since forgotten it.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jun 16, 2023 16:29:47 GMT -5
The Incredible Hulk #6 "The Incredible Hulk vs The Metal Master" Written by Stan Lee Art by Steve Ditko Letters by Art Simek Cover: This is one of the better early Marvel covers. The colors are still pretty muted. And I'm not a big fan of the huge yellow speech bubbles. But there's decent action and you get a feeling for what is going to happen inside. The Story: The army is about to test a new gizmo but can't go ahead because Bruce Banner can't be found. Thuderbolt is grumbling and Betty is worried that maybe the Hulk got him. Meanwhile The Hulk can't get to his underground lab to change back to Banner because the army is out on maneuvers and he can't get past them. He tries to take an chance and is about to be discovered when, serendipitously, the army is recalled because of an emergency signal that everyone can hear no matter how far they are from the source or how loud the tanks and planes are. The Hulk makes it to the lab and grouses about changing back in to Banner, but does anyway. The pain is much worse every time and the results are unpredictable. The army was called back because the experimental gizmo has melted at the mind of the Metal Master. He's the only criminal from a distant galaxy who has come in a tiny little space pod to conquer Earth. His brain can control all "metallic atoms." Which seems like something that natural selection would select for. He proceeds to melt helmets, a tank and "trap" Ross and others in a metallic cage. Which leads Ross to determine that he should send some metallic rockets after him. Metal Master's plan seems as ill-conceived as his ability to trap Thunderbolt Ross. Back at the lab Rick comes in as Banner is changing back to The Hulk. But he ends up with Banner's head on the Hulk's body. But luckily he has rubber masks of the Hulk's head for research purposes. No...really. That's the explanation. It may be the single dumbest thing we've yet seen in the Marvel Universe. Enough so that it has to be commented on here instead of in the later "thoughts" portion. The Hulk and Metal Master meet and MM offers to work with Hulk to conquer the Earth. Hulky though decides he can do it without any help if he decides to do so. So they fight...because that's what superhero funnybooks are all about. MM manages to knock Hulk out by hitting him in the back of the head with a piece of metal (why did nobody think of that before. Hulk is then captured by the army who unmask him. But luckily his face has changed from Banner's to the Hulk's...as they do. Hulk is put in a "stone" building that has rivets for some reason to hold him after he's captured. It also has an opening that is big enough for Hulk to talk to Rick Jones and accuse him of telling the army about the mask and get his hands through. Because that makes sense with a dangerous prisoner. Rick asks to join the army but is told he's too young. At the same time Metal Master is flying around the world at, apparently supersonic speeds on a piece of metal wrecking havoc on metal things. At this point we get to the most important point of the story historically. Rick and his buddies form the Teen Brigade so that ham radio enthusiasts world-wide can help the police, the army, everyone. Of course the Hulk escapes because if he didn't then the story couldn't continue to happen. Betty's only concern, as the world is falling apart, is that maybe the Hulk has captured Bruce. The Hulk goes back to his lab and changes back to Banner for absolutely no apparent reason other than maybe so he can be weakened and make up with Rick after Hulk dissed him. Luckily Banner concocts a plan to beat MM and Rick is able to put the Teen Brigade to work getting condensers and tubes and circuits from exotic locales like Seattle and Pittsburgh and get them to the desert Southwest in hours. All the while MM is flying around messing up rockets and planes. Banner (presumably) puts together a gun of Liefeldian proportions and then changes in to the Hulk to go and face off with MM. Hulk, the Teen Brigade and Ross and the army are all able to converge on D.C. as MM is menacing it, no matter where they are coming from. Because distance has no meaning. MM finds that he can't effect the gun that Hulk is holding so he just...kinda...gives up. Because he didn't just knock the guy out not so long ago with a piece of metal upside the back of his noggin. But no...he just fixes everything and takes off not to be seen again for almost 20 years. Rick and the Hulk jump back to the lab (from D.C.) where the transformation machine doesn't seem to work, giving Hulk a chance to rage and pout for a couple pages even though he doesn't really want to be Banner. They also find out that The Hulk has been pardoned, which just infuriates him even more. Meanwhile Betty is still worried about Banner, who goes to see her telling her he's been resting in Bermuda. And they go off into the sunset. Thoughts… This is the first full-length story for this series since issue #2. Steve Ditko does the art on this issue instead of Kirby. Overall, as weak as the story is (and I'll get in to that) the art here is pretty strong. The Hulk looks more menacing than he has since the first issue. Ditko really leans in to the Frankenstein (Karloff version) antecedents of the character. On the other hand, Rick Jones looks a lot like Peter Parker...or is it Palmer. The Hulk continuously complains about Banner...and yet he keeps changing back. And Banner keeps changing in to the Hulk (though generally for a reason) even though the change keeps making him weaker and more strung out. And, as we'll see, starts having unpredictable effects. There is almost a metaphor here for drug addiction, though I'm quite sure that wasn't done purposefully. Banner has a telescreen in his lab that lets him watch the army base and nobody seems to notice the cameras or wiring or anything. No wonder the Commies are always able to get spies into and info out of the bases. Oh look...another alien from another galaxy who wants to take over the Earth. We haven't seen that before. And Earth was the only planet with enough metal to interest him. I need an eyeroll emoji. Does anyone know if this was done Marvel-style or script? Because there is some really weird shit going on in this story. Not least is the bizarro Banner-head/Hulk body followed by the fact that Banner just happens to have plastic Hulk masks for "research." I want to know who to blame for this lunacy, Lee or Ditko. Steve Ditko does not own a globe. The time dilation in this story is almost universally ridiculous. If someone needs something or needs to go somewhere it happens in what must be a matter of minutes. Ross can go from the Southwest U.S. to Washington D.C. and raise an army in the time that the Hulk and MM are duking it out. MM can just fly about the world twisting metal almost instantaneously. No thought was put in to this. Which is fine if you recognize that it's silly children's literature. But if you want to pretend it's something better than what the other funnybook companies were doing, you're kidding yourself. Leaving aside that the stuff was coming from Seattle and Pittsburgh...why the HELL was the Teen Brigade needed to get stuff to put together a fake gun made from plastic and cardboard? Again, either the writer and artist were on completely different pages or the story is just plum damn stupid. I'll try not to raise this every time...but we are now very clearly in a shared universe. So where are the FF, Thor, Iron Man, etc. to deal with Magneto...I mean The Metal Master? I mean...I know where they are...it's the Hulk's book so they are in their own books. But this is another reason that shared universes tend to be super silly. Banner and Betty are significantly closer than they have been in the first four issues and appear to now be actually dating. The plot: Terrible. I mean...really this is bad. So much of it is just nonsense. Again if you accept that this is written for 8-10 year olds it's still kind of bad. But people pretend this stuff is better than what was on the stands from other companies. D. The art: As bad as the story is...and it's pretty bad...I rather liked the art on this one. I feel like Ditko gave us a Hulk that was actually pretty menacing for the first time since the first issue. B. The toll: Hulk is pretty subdued in this one for collateral damage. It's mostly just putting a hole in the "stone" room he was confined to and damaging some of his own lab equipment. Grade for historic importance: This one is a little hard. Metal Master won't appear again for almost 20 years and he's a pretty nothing villain. It's the first appearance of the Teen Brigade...so maybe points off for that. It is the first Marvel Age book to be cancelled. I've heard various reasons why; low sales; wanting to try other books but having the bad distribution deal so something had to go. I dunno. But it was cancelled and honestly it wasn't much of a loss. I'll say... D.
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Post by kirby101 on Jun 16, 2023 18:55:24 GMT -5
If Stan did the dialog, it was Marvel style. Stan never wrote a script before the art was done.
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Post by Rob Allen on Jun 16, 2023 19:04:13 GMT -5
The last word balloon in the last panel has a teenager in 1963 exclaiming, "Reet!", which originated as jazz hepcat slang in the 1930s and was virtually gone by 1960 except for a brief revival in 1957 with Jackie Wilson's hit song Reet Petite. It's not impossible that a 1963 teen would say "Reet!" but it's really unlikely. I'd bet it was Marvel style. Once you know to look for it, you can see various examples from the Marvel Age where Stan used text to explain or contradict something bizarre that the artist had drawn. The first other examples that come to my mind also involve the Hulk: - in the story where the Hulk goes to outer space and gets zapped, Kirby clearly draws the Hulk as having the ability to fly when he gets back. He swoops down and back up and changes direction in midair. Stan's text insists that the Hulk is just leaping. - a few issues later Kirby has the Hulk jump over the Pacific Ocean. Stan's caption explains that he's hitching rides on airplanes.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jun 16, 2023 20:27:24 GMT -5
The last word balloon in the last panel has a teenager in 1963 exclaiming, "Reet!", which originated as jazz hepcat slang in the 1930s and was virtually gone by 1960 except for a brief revival in 1957 with Jackie Wilson's hit song Reet Petite. It's not impossible that a 1963 teen would say "Reet!" but it's really unlikely. I'd bet it was Marvel style. Once you know to look for it, you can see various examples from the Marvel Age where Stan used text to explain or contradict something bizarre that the artist had drawn. The first other examples that come to my mind also involve the Hulk: - in the story where the Hulk goes to outer space and gets zapped, Kirby clearly draws the Hulk as having the ability to fly when he gets back. He swoops down and back up and changes direction in midair. Stan's text insists that the Hulk is just leaping. - a few issues later Kirby has the Hulk jump over the Pacific Ocean. Stan's caption explains that he's hitching rides on airplanes. I had kind of spaced that as it’s been a while. But, yeah, Jack clearly had Hulk flying a couple issues earlier. So we can blame Ditko for the whole Banner’s head and mask fiasco.
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Post by EdoBosnar on Jun 17, 2023 2:40:48 GMT -5
As I noted in my own review of the first six issues of Hulk earlier this year, when I was a kid reading the pocketbook reprints in the late '70s, my favorites were issues 2 and 6, almost entirely because I liked the art better in those - i.e., Ditko had a hand in both. As for the story itself, yeah, it was pretty silly, but then again, I didn't think any of those first six issues was a winner. It was really apparent that nobody, not Kirby, not Lee, not Ditko or anyone else, had a clear idea of what the Hulk should be, and the all-over-the-place character of the stories really reflects that.
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Post by Cei-U! on Jun 17, 2023 3:07:21 GMT -5
Going by release dates, the FF are apparently en route to the moon, Tony Stark is a prisoner in Viet Nam, Ant-Man is rescuing some scientists trapped in another dimension, and Spider-Man is still an entertainer at the time of MM's rampage. No excuses for Thor, though, the slacker. Of course, none of this compensates for what is truly a wretched excuse for a story.
Cei-U! I summon the continuity geek!
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Post by kirby101 on Jun 17, 2023 8:17:24 GMT -5
I just read Spider-Man 14, first Green Goblin and guest starring The Hulk, for some reason, since his book was cancelled and he hadn't started in TtA. Maybe they were hyping him before he started in Tales. Beyond the ludicrous story of luring Spider-Man to Hollywood just to beat him up, the highly improbable meeting with the Hulk (he happened to be in the same cave they ended up fighting in was eye-rolling. But who was this Hulk? It was obvious Stan had no idea of who was the character was yet. His dialog was way to intelligent, and he sounded like neither Banner or the Hulk. As I read these issues of ASM I see the appeal is the soap opera of Peter's life and the shear joy of Ditko's art.
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Post by MDG on Jun 17, 2023 10:56:20 GMT -5
As I noted in my own review of the first six issues of Hulk earlier this year, when I was a kid reading the pocketbook reprints in the late '70s, my favorites were issues 2 and 6, almost entirely because I liked the art better in those - i.e., Ditko had a hand in both. As for the story itself, yeah, it was pretty silly, but then again, I didn't think any of those first six issues was a winner. It was really apparent that nobody, not Kirby, not Lee, not Ditko or anyone else, had a clear idea of what the Hulk should be, and the all-over-the-place character of the stories really reflects that. I was just thinking that. It was clear Stan believed the character could be something, but wasn't sure what that would be, especially if he was going to be distinct from Ben/Thing.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jun 17, 2023 12:13:44 GMT -5
As I noted in my own review of the first six issues of Hulk earlier this year, when I was a kid reading the pocketbook reprints in the late '70s, my favorites were issues 2 and 6, almost entirely because I liked the art better in those - i.e., Ditko had a hand in both. As for the story itself, yeah, it was pretty silly, but then again, I didn't think any of those first six issues was a winner. It was really apparent that nobody, not Kirby, not Lee, not Ditko or anyone else, had a clear idea of what the Hulk should be, and the all-over-the-place character of the stories really reflects that. I rate the first issue pretty highly, probably the best issue of the MU to this point that isn’t a Fantastic Four or Spider-Man story. It’s a pretty solid origin and overall the story works. The creators simply had no idea where to go with it and having a monster as a protagonist was much harder when the CCA still had teeth.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jun 20, 2023 10:38:44 GMT -5
So...March 1963. Well the books with March 1963 on the cover. This was where it became clear that there was a Marvel Universe. The Fantastic Four and The Hulk had a full adventure together. And Spider-Man sought out the Fantastic Four in the first issue of his own magazine. There was no doubt all this was happening in one place.
Looking at the company, this was also the first month where a majority (though a bare majority) of the books were super-hero books. 7 of 12 books starred super-heroes with Amazing Spider-Man appearing and Iron Man taking over Tales of Suspense. Of the other five, three were westerns and two were romance/girl books. Aliens and Commies are still the main baddies.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Aug 28, 2023 14:21:15 GMT -5
Strange Tales #107 "The Master of Flame Vs. The Monarch of the Sea!!" Plot by Stan Lee Script by Larry Lieber Art by Dick Ayers Letters by Art Simek Cover: Just a super solid cover by Jack Kirby and Sol Brodsky. Easily one of the best of the new Marvel Age. The Torch and Sub-Mariner certainly pop and you can tell this is going to be a battle. The big word bubbles are obtrusive and the cover pales compared to the incredible Golden-Age covers of the Torch and Sub-Mariner fighting. But for early Marvel this is way up there. The Story:
An epic adventure deserves an epic start. So we see Johnny coming home from school to find that the three adult members of the FF had been planning out their next adventure (I'm assuming comic book adventure) without him. Sue was lucky enough to get to do the typing...presumably because, as they told Spidey, all their money goes in to scientific research and they can't afford a secretary. This, of course causes much whining from Johnny because he's a petulant child and nothing says fun and inclusion like sending notes to Stan and Jack about upcoming funnybook stories. Showing that adult brilliance, Johnny decides he'll show them how grown up he is by going and defeating Namor. This conveniently forgets that Sue had told him just an issue or two ago that FF members don't just go off and get in to fights for their own purposes. And that Namor doesn't seem to have done anything to deserve a beating. Oh well, boys will be boys. Brain-trust that he is, Johnny just flies out to see looking for Namor. Of course as he flies around his powers go out, but luckily there's ship for him to land on so that he doesn't drown and the story can happen. The crew of the ship thinks he's a stowaway and make him swab the deck until the ship gets in to trouble and he can use his powers to save it. While looking for Namor again (because his powers couldn't possible peter out in the middle of the ocean again) his flame singes some flying fish. And one of them in the entire ocean serendipitously swims by Namor who notices...so the story can happen. Namor doesn't want to fight the Torch, but is goaded in to it because Johnny is a sociopath. Luckily the bit of the ocean they are over hides a statue that can be used to hypnotize people and an asbestos cloth (because there's a lot of need for asbestos under the ocean). Namor uses these to KO Johnny and then ties him to a very happy porpoise and sends him off toward shore. I think he's happy because he's fulfilling a noble porpoise. Johnny escapes (but luckily doesn't incinerate the porpoise) because now he can flame on when he's half submerged. He then goes back to resume his meaningless fight with Namor and we find he can flame-on when submerged if he's not too wet...because why the Hell not...his powers just do whatever the plot needs so the story can happen. He then goes nova which somehow allows him to flame underwater, dig holes in the ocean floor and probably repair Sue's typewriter. Namor ends up trapped under the seafloor and Johnny just flies off leaving Namor to his fate. Who cares if he lives or dies, when you're a teenage psychopath. Johnny's powers go out again when he reaches the surface, but he's picked up by the same ship that saved him before, because it has nothing better to do than go in circles on the ocean. Namor is able to escape from his undersea tomb. And Johnny goes home and takes a nap, no longer caring to let the oldsters that he beat Namor all by himself...but rather to sleep the sleep of those with no conscience. Thoughts…
I feel like this is the first time we've seen an Editor's Note referring to a previous issue. If we've seen one before I don't remember it, but this thread kind of has staggered along. Be that as it may there it is on the bottom of page one referring to the events of the last issue. Neat! I've referred to it before in the review, but Johnny is the villain of this story. He attacks Namor with absolutely no provocation. He essentially leaves Namor for dead, buried beneath the ocean floor. Which would be far more interesting if I thought that was what Lee & Lieber intended. But I don't think that's how they saw it at the time. Seriously, Johnny Storm is a menace. Why isn't J. Jonah Jameson after him instead of Spidey? He's also dumb. Johnny Storm is NOT smart. No real plan. Just fly out to sea and try to prove how macho I am. Sue keeps a photo of Namor in her bedroom. Because that's 100% normal given her "understanding" with Reed. There are coincidences here of Burroughsian proportions. A ship just happens to save Johnny's bacon when his flame runs out. The singed flying fish just happens to swim by Namor. Namor just happens to be near the mesmero statue and have an asbestos cloth. Sigh. Namor still has the ability to do things that sea creatures do...when it fits the story. Thus he is able to puff up like a pufferfish. Let's hope we are never subjected to that again. Johnny's powers continue to work in whatever way the plot dictates. Duration, exposure to water, none of it really matters. He runs out of power just flying around over the ocean, but then he can flame back on when he's in the water on a dolphin's back. This is the first time (as far as I can remember) that Johnny uses his "nova heat" power. The writers had zero idea what that would actually mean if it were to actually happen. This is obviously a call-back to the Torch/Sub-Mariner battles at the very start of the golden-age. And that's kind of cool. Though this story isn't a patch on those epic battles. Namor just feels off here. More like a generic fish-villain (for all that he's the aggrieved party) than the mighty monarch of the seas. The plot: Kind of terrible. Honestly There's not much here but a slug-fest. And if you like that kind of thing, that's fine. But the reason for it is just stupid. And ultimately it didn't matter anyway because Johnny couldn't even prove to the rest of the FF what he was trying to prove. Most it just showed he's a malicious petulant child. Sadly this is still much better than average for the terrible Human Torch strip. D+. The art: On the other hand, the art is pretty nice. Ayers generally does a good job with the action. B. The toll: Surprisingly, Johnny doesn't cause much collateral damage. Mostly just some singed flying fish. Unless you count the fact that he's guilty of Aggravated Battery and Attempted Murder. Grade for historic importance:(oops missed this). I dunno. I guess there’s something to be said about Torch going “nova” for the first time. And it’s an attempt to renew an old rivalry. But mostly it’s not much. C- which is probably generous.
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