|
Post by Slam_Bradley on Oct 30, 2019 18:24:23 GMT -5
You're braver than I, though I appreciate the sentiment. "Never dis the big E" I was taught. There is a story that seeing Elvis when he was passing through that part of Texas helped inspire Buddy (and Roy O.), but then maybe Elvis' path was somewhat prepared for by Bill Haley and Bob Wills? Not just a story, but a photograph of pre-fame Buddy Holly backstage at an Elvis show in Texas circa 1955. That's Buddy on the far left in the spectacles... Elvis Presley, of course, influenced everybody who got into r'n'r in the late '50s and early '60s, but I think Buddy has been more influential on the rock and pop of the last 60+ years overall. On a personal level, I also prefer Buddy's music to Elvis's by miles. Holly is far more influential and was just an all-around better musical presence than Elvis. By which I mean he could sing, play and write music. Elvis was more of an interpreter of others work. Influence-wise I would venture that Elvis lags behind a number of his Sun contemporaries. Carl Perkins' influence has been huge compared to his relative success as a musician.
|
|
|
Post by berkley on Oct 31, 2019 1:10:56 GMT -5
What are we talking about when we say 'King of Rock and Roll': level of artistic achievement, influence, cultural impact, chronology,...? If all of that and more, how do we weigh up all those different aspects, proportionally?
When I was growing up, a lot of people used to say Bill Haley, based I presume on the idea that Rock Around the Clock was maybe the earliest big hit single that everyone agrees is a rocknroll song. But that's putting too much weight on mere chronology for me, because I never have liked the song or any of Haley and the Comets' stuff all that much. I mean, I don't hate it, but it always felt a bit bland to me, perhaps unfairly so since I'm contrasting it with what came afterwards.
To me, of those earliest big names - those who had mainstream hits in 1955, the same year Rock Around the Clock came out - of those that were still familiar to my generation when I was growing up in the 60s and 70s it's always been Chuck Berry who stood out in terms of my personal taste for his music and the enormous influence he had on the next wave of rocknroll artists.
But Elvis Presley came along only a year later with his version of Hound Dog in 1956, and if you assign more weight to direct cultural impact I think it's nearly impossible to over-rate the sensational impression he made and how huge he remained as a pop culture icon pretty much until his death.
Buddy Holly's first big hit came in 1957 (I had to look up all these dates on wiki, BTW, my picture of the exact chronology has never been that precise) so I suppose a shade weaker in terms of being a pioneer when compared to Haley or Chuck Berry or Fats Domino, etc. But I think he was a colossus in terms of influence and "level of artistic achievement" (there has to be a less pompous way of putting that idea into words).
Where Holly advanced beyond them is to me the breadth of his song-writing talent: both Fats Domino and Chuck Berry, much as I love them, stayed within relatively narrow confines with their songs. But Holly, while still having a strong personal sound, wrote within a much wider range styles. I think, if you hear someone covering a Chuck Berry song, you inevitably recognise it as a Chuck Berry song even if you never heard it before, at least if they do it well. But I can conceive of someone hearing a cover of a Buddy Holly song they never heard before and not immediately knowing it's a Buddy Holly song.
In terms of influence, I think that Buddy Holly was the nearest to the Beatles of all those earlier rocknroll icons: yeah, they probably covered more Little Richard or Chuck Berry but to me their sound and their approach to songwriting was more like Holly's, even if it's hard to pin down any particular track that I'd say is an obvious Holly-style song. Of course, they were taking influences or inspirations from anywhere and everywhere, so it wasNt just Holly but I do see or hear more of his sound, of all the early guys, in the Beatles.
|
|
Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,197
|
Post by Confessor on Oct 31, 2019 10:58:56 GMT -5
What are we talking about when we say 'King of Rock and Roll': level of artistic achievement, influence, cultural impact, chronology,...? If all of that and more, how do we weigh up all those different aspects, proportionally? When I was growing up, a lot of people used to say Bill Haley, based I presume on the idea that Rock Around the Clock was maybe the earliest big hit single that everyone agrees is a rocknroll song. But that's putting too much weight on mere chronology for me, because I never have liked the song or any of Haley and the Comets' stuff all that much. I mean, I don't hate it, but it always felt a bit bland to me, perhaps unfairly so since I'm contrasting it with what came afterwards. To me, of those earliest big names - those who had mainstream hits in 1955, the same year Rock Around the Clock came out - of those that were still familiar to my generation when I was growing up in the 60s and 70s it's always been Chuck Berry who stood out in terms of my personal taste for his music and the enormous influence he had on the next wave of rocknroll artists. But Elvis Presley came along only a year later with his version of Hound Dog in 1956, and if you assign more weight to direct cultural impact I think it's nearly impossible to over-rate the sensational impression he made and how huge he remained as a pop culture icon pretty much until his death. Buddy Holly's first big hit came in 1957 (I had to look up all these dates on wiki, BTW, my picture of the exact chronology has never been that precise) so I suppose a shade weaker in terms of being a pioneer when compared to Haley or Chuck Berry or Fats Domino, etc. But I think he was a colossus in terms of influence and "level of artistic achievement" (there has to be a less pompous way of putting that idea into words). Where Holly advanced beyond them is to me the breadth of his song-writing talent: both Fats Domino and Chuck Berry, much as I love them, stayed within relatively narrow confines with their songs. But Holly, while still having a strong personal sound, wrote within a much wider range styles. I think, if you hear someone covering a Chuck Berry song, you inevitably recognise it as a Chuck Berry song even if you never heard it before, at least if they do it well. But I can conceive of someone hearing a cover of a Buddy Holly song they never heard before and not immediately knowing it's a Buddy Holly song.
In terms of influence, I think that Buddy Holly was the nearest to the Beatles of all those earlier rocknroll icons: yeah, they probably covered more Little Richard or Chuck Berry but to me their sound and their approach to songwriting was more like Holly's, even if it's hard to pin down any particular track that I'd say is an obvious Holly-style song. Of course, they were taking influences or inspirations from anywhere and everywhere, so it wasNt just Holly but I do see or hear more of his sound, of all the early guys, in the Beatles.Personally, when I say "The King of Rock 'n' Roll", I'm talking about level of innovation, influence on succesive generations of musicians, and who I just plain think made the best music. Chronology has fairly little to do with it really...that's a different discussion, as in "what was the first rock 'n' roll record" (and I'm firmly in the "Rock Around the Clock" camp BTW). The highlighted (by me) text in your post above is a large part of why Buddy Holly is, for me, the most important of those early Rock 'n' Rollers. I mean, The Crickets wrote, arranged and performed their own material (something that was unheard of for pop or rock entertainers at the time), and that is pretty much the template that all major rock performers and bands have adopted since Holly pioneered it. From the Beatles, to the Rolling Stones, to Led Zeppelin, to the Smiths, to R.E.M., to Nirvana, to Oasis, to Vampire Weekend and beyond. Every time some kid plugs in an electric guitar, Buddy Holly is right there...whether the kid in question realises it or not. It's really hard to overestimate the level of influence that Holly has had on the last 60+ years of rock and pop music. That's without talking about how Holly was also one of the pioneers of using the recording studio as an instrument, by utilizing experimental techniques in order to achieve certain sounds that he wanted. There are plenty of other important and highly influential '50s rock 'n' rollers, such as Chuck Berry, Little Richard, the Everly Brothers, and, yes, Elvis Presley. But in my opinion, Holly stands above them all. I think that Elvis remains the template for the good looking, sexually desirable heartthrob rock star, but Buddy Holly's contributions to the evolution of rock and pop music -- past and ongoing -- is, as I say, hard to overestimate.
|
|
|
Post by beccabear67 on Oct 31, 2019 16:49:09 GMT -5
I don't really get too serious about competing artists against each other, especially not since I made the 'mistake' of saying how I felt Barry Gibb qualified as a King Of Pop over you-know-who (who I still have some respect for as an artist). Yes, writing the most songs/any songs, playing an instrument (especially when it's a Fender strat), that gets loads of bonus points from me, but I just don't really keep score that closely. I like a lot of Elvis, I like everything Buddy ever did, practically everything Carl Perkins ever did, and Gene Vincent... I'm not going to worry about it when they're all in my personal hall of fame by way of multiple CDs and LPs. Bill Haley is well represented, and Louis Jordan, and even that lovable Ike Turner (trying to not imagine the boos and hisses here too much). Buddy & The Crickets were and are huge... Brian May knows. Buddy with The Crickets got to tour England once in person and definitely made a lasting impression, one of the earliest recordings by John Lennon & Paul McCartney was of his That'll Be The Day after all (when they were The Quarrymen). Bo Diddley and The Everly Brothers were also quite popular and influential in England (and Canada) even when the sun had started to set on them a bit in the U.S. We all know Elvis didn't really perform outside of North America excepting Hawaii and (very informally) West Germany. I'm pretty sure I've seen that Buddy backstage at the Elvis show in either an early Vintage Rock magazine or a one-off special issue they put together on him, but it's always cool to see it... there's some slightly similar snaps of some of the future Rolling Stones at a Chuck Berry show.
|
|
|
Post by Slam_Bradley on Oct 31, 2019 18:17:56 GMT -5
I don't really get too serious about competing artists against each other, especially not since I made the 'mistake' of saying how I felt Barry Gibb qualified as a King Of Pop over you-know-who (who I still have some respect for as an artist). Everybody knows that Garth Brooks is the King of Pop.
|
|
Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,197
|
Post by Confessor on Oct 31, 2019 18:56:28 GMT -5
Everybody knows that Garth Brooks is the King of Pop.
|
|
|
Post by beccabear67 on Nov 2, 2019 11:48:22 GMT -5
I have new respect for Mr. Brooks thanks to that Ken Burns series, still don't think the alter ego young grunge version worked, but major points for audacity I suppose. Oh yeah, and don't call me Shirley...
|
|
Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,197
|
Post by Confessor on Sept 29, 2020 9:59:44 GMT -5
I picked up some "new" old vinyl recently, during a short vacation in Wiltshire... Marquee Moon by Television, Gas Food Lodging by Green On Red, Pearl by Janis Joplin, Sisters by the Bluebells, and Laid Back by Gregg Allman are all new to me, though I already owned a couple of tracks from the Green On Red and Janis Joplin albums on compilations. Marquee Moon is a modern re-issue on Rhino Records, but all the other records I bought are vintage vinyl pressings. The Tears For Fears album is one that lots of my school friends had and consequently I heard it a lot back in 1985 or 86, but this is the first copy of it I've owned. So that was a bit of a nostalgia buy. Likewise the Wonder Stuff album is actually a bootleg that a good friend of mine had in the early '90s which features some of the band's early demos; we listened to it a lot back in the day (I was sort of obsessed with the Wonder Stuff for a period of about 18 months in 1990 and 1991), but I never owned a copy of it myself. So yeah, this was another nostalgic purchase really. The Traffic best of, Hall & Oates' fourth album, the two Santana albums, and the Sex Pistols' Never Mind the Bollocks, Here's the Sex Pistols are all albums that I used to own on vinyl once upon a time, but I sold them off when money was tight in the late '90s. Actually, the Pistols' album is the best buy of the lot: it's an original first UK pressing from 1977 (the standard 12 track version, not the ultra rare 11 track 1977 version, of course) and is in really nice condition. I only paid £25 for it, which considering such a pressing in similar NM condition would go for anywhere between £80-£200 quid on eBay, is a great bargain. It's been a depressing and financially difficult year for me, so buying some vinyl again for the first time in about 8 months has cheered me up a bit.
|
|
|
Post by beccabear67 on Sept 29, 2020 13:48:21 GMT -5
I thought the Wonder Stuff was great, they seem to be almost totally forgotten now though. I've probably played Marquee Moon the most with the Santanas not too far behind. Never even heard of The Bluebells. The last thing I played was The Sandals' Endless Summer LP, and before that some Steel Pulse CDs.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2020 23:48:32 GMT -5
One of the rarest, if not rarest Duran Duran vinyls in the world. Estimate pressing....50 copies in Japan.
Retails for about 500 Euro in this condition.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2020 23:56:45 GMT -5
If I had to do a nostalgia buy, I'd get the Pet Shop Boys album 'Actually' on vinyl. The one with West End Girls and one of my most favourite songs from the 80s, Heart...love the version on this album, not the Discography one.
|
|
Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,197
|
Post by Confessor on Sept 30, 2020 6:02:50 GMT -5
I thought the Wonder Stuff was great, they seem to be almost totally forgotten now though. Agreed. Sadly underrated these days. Their first two albums, The Eight-Legged Groove Machine and Hup, in particular we're fantastic and musically such a breath of fresh air back then on that 1989/1990 cusp. Never even heard of The Bluebells. They were a folk-influenced Scottish band from the mid-80s that came out of that same Scottish indie scene as Aztec Camera, Orange Juice and Lloyd Cole & the Commotions. Their big hit (which is on that album I bought) was "Young at Heart"... The last thing I played was The Sandals' Endless Summer LP, and before that some Steel Pulse CDs. Ahhh...the Endless Summer album is classic. Not familiar with Steel Pulse though.
|
|
Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,197
|
Post by Confessor on Sept 30, 2020 6:10:59 GMT -5
One of the rarest, if not rarest Duran Duran vinyls in the world. Estimate pressing....50 copies in Japan. Retails for about 500 Euro in this condition.
I'm always on the look out for an original vinyl pressing of the Rio album, with the textured cover. That was another LP that I decided to sell when funds were tight back in the late 90s. You see them fairly regularly in used record shops -- it was a big selling album, after all -- but they very often seem to be trashed. I want a really good condition copy.
|
|
|
Post by berkley on Sept 30, 2020 23:33:32 GMT -5
I picked up some "new" old vinyl recently, during a short vacation in Wiltshire... Marquee Moon by Television, Gas Food Lodging by Green On Red, Pearl by Janis Joplin, Sisters by the Bluebells, and Laid Back by Gregg Allman are all new to me, though I already owned a couple of tracks from the Green On Red and Janis Joplin albums on compilations. Marquee Moon is a modern re-issue on Rhino Records, but all the other records I bought are vintage vinyl pressings. The Tears For Fears album is one that lots of my school friends had and consequently I heard it a lot back in 1985 or 86, but this is the first copy of it I've owned. So that was a bit of a nostalgia buy. Likewise the Wonder Stuff album is actually a bootleg that a good friend of mine had in the early '90s which features some of the band's early demos; we listened to it a lot back in the day (I was sort of obsessed with the Wonder Stuff for a period of about 18 months in 1990 and 1991), but I never owned a copy of it myself. So yeah, this was another nostalgic purchase really. The Traffic best of, Hall & Oates' fourth album, the two Santana albums, and the Sex Pistols' Never Mind the Bollocks, Here's the Sex Pistols are all albums that I used to own on vinyl once upon a time, but I sold them off when money was tight in the late '90s. Actually, the Pistols' album is the best buy of the lot: it's an original first UK pressing from 1977 (the standard 12 track version, not the ultra rare 11 track 1977 version, of course) and is in really nice condition. I only paid £25 for it, which considering such a pressing in similar NM condition would go for anywhere between £80-£200 quid on eBay, is a great bargain. It's been a depressing and financially difficult year for me, so buying some vinyl again for the first time in about 8 months has cheered me up a bit.
Marquee Moon is an album I've always struggled to get into - thoguh perhaps 'struggled' is putting it too strongly, as I' haven't really listened to it all that much. I think the problem is that for some reasonI always thought it was something I'd like a lot on first listen, and when it didn't completely click right away I was left a little disappointed. I still suspect I'd like it more if I gave it more attention, which could still happen one of these days.
Love Abraxas, but that's the only Santana album I know really well, apart from the greatest hits. Samb Pa Ti is one of the greatest instrumental tracks of all time, for my money. Also one of my favourite album covers, a true work of art.
|
|
|
Post by EdoBosnar on Oct 1, 2020 4:46:14 GMT -5
Marquee Moon is a fantastic album; I could listen to it on a permanent loop. I'm also a big, big fan of Santana - I've seen him live six times, which, considering how rarely I actually go to concerts, is saying a lot. Abraxas is arguably the best album, but to me the first four albums are all essential listening, and there are some real gems in his later discography as well.
|
|