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Post by Pharozonk on Jun 19, 2015 22:07:33 GMT -5
Thanks for the kind words, sabongero. I hope you enjoy what you read. Also, welcome to the CCF!  |
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Post by paulie on Jun 20, 2015 14:13:15 GMT -5
Of all the silly pretend deaths, near deaths, and resurrections Marvel has done, I've always though Jean was the one that made sense. The whole point of a Phoenix is rising from the ashes, after all.. if Claremont didn't intend for her to come back, he should have chosen a different motif.  Contrari-wise, I know of at least two board members who stopped buying any Marvel comics because they brought her back. I was one of them. This is when the wheels started coming off. |
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Post by sabongero on Jun 20, 2015 16:46:29 GMT -5
It was interesting to note I just started reading comic books regularly at the end of 1985 and beginning of 1986, and at the time I was unaware of the major storylines happening in the Marvel universe. I was a regular reader from the end of 1985 to the end of 1987. And then I had an almost complete hiatus until the summer of 2006. I was so unaware that I didn't even know that Hal Jordan was "killed off" as I read my first comic book "Green Lantern: Rebirth" in 2006.
Getting back to X-Factor, it was definitely interesting as a first time reader and getting to follow a book from the inception. I definitely liked the group, and liked the team interaction between the five. Scott Summers came across as very unsure of himself at the time. But I need to dig up where my X-Factor books of old, and re-read them at some point.
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Post by Pharozonk on Jun 20, 2015 19:18:46 GMT -5
X-Factor #2 “Bless the Beasts and Children" Writer: Bob Layton Pencils: Jackson Guice Ink: Josef Rubenstein, Bob Layton, Jackson Guice Color: Glynis Oliver Editor: Mike Carlin Grade: B Summary: We open to Jean Grey having a nightmare of her first “death” and revival as Phoenix. She awakens from the dream and laments how much the world around her has changed since she sacrificed herself during the Dark Phoenix Saga. The next day, Warren and Scott are debating how Scott should break the news of his marriage to Jean and how she will react. While Warren tries his best to help, Scott writes his advice off and gets frustrated. Meanwhile, Bobby and Hank are running errands when Hank runs into an old flame of his, Vera. The two go to Vera’s apartment to catch up and reconnect. Back at X-Factor headquarters, Jean is helping the fire mutant from last issue, Rusty, gain control of his powers, but he keeps failing and leaves out of frustration. Scott continues to refuse to talk to Jean about what has happened. Back at Vera’s apartment, the trio are talking when suddenly a mutant named Tower who can grow and shrink in size bursts into the room and kidnaps Hank, taking him to a scientist who happens to be an old acquaintance of Hank’s. He reveals the he needs Hank as a test subject for his mutant cure as he plans on using it eventually on his son Arthur, who is gifted with a superior intellect, but suffers from deformities. The other members of X-Factor manage to track down Tower at his home and subdue after a prolonged fight. However, the scientist’s cure fails and seems to send Hank into cardiac arrest. Thoughts: While this issue isn’t nearly as jam packed with interesting subplots as the last issue, it’s still employs the same style of juggling multiple subplots while still building towards an overall arc. Neither the tension between Jean and Scott nor the offbeat adventures of Hank and Bobby are the main plot of the story, but they are blend in with the overall story Layton is trying to tell. The “evil scientist kidnaps Hank” story is pretty blasé for the most part, but it’s helped by the fact that it has these other side plots to play off of at the same time. This kind of storytelling was prominent for much of the first year of X-Factor, where the majority of the issue was devoted to slice of life antics and a larger, but usually less interesting storyline served as the backbone of the issue. Tower is a pretty generic, one-note villain, but he serves his purpose as a henchman for the main antagonist, even if his boss is even more uninteresting than he is. Another thing that X-Factor excelled at during the early years of its run was the introduction of younger mutants that the members of X-Factor would mentor and serve as role models to. Rusty, while a bit short tempered, is a very realistic character and plays off the more composed Jean Grey very well. This issue also has the introduction of one of my favorite characters from the series, Arthur “Artie” Maddicks. He’s a very quiet, shy kid which contrasts with his somewhat bizarre appearance. While he doesn’t play a role in this issue, he quickly becomes the heart and soul of the team in later issues and is a real joy whenever he shows up.
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Post by Honeystinger on Jun 20, 2015 20:54:19 GMT -5
X-Factor #1<snipped> Summary: Cyclops is living in Anchorage with his wife Madelyne Pryor and son, Nathan following his departure from the X-Men. He's struggling to come to terms with no longer being a superhero and Jean's death, leading to fights with Maddy. Meanwhile, Angel, Beast, and Iceman are moving out of the New Defenders base following the death of much of the team (see New Defenders series). Suddenly, Warren gets a call from Mr. Fantastic of the Fantastic Four about something urgent and leaves immediately. Elsewhere, a young sailor is getting a drink at a pub when he's approached by a young lady. However, his mutant powers activate and he bursts into flames, much to the horror of the others in the bar. Back in the main plot, Warren meets Reed and he takes him to meet Jean (who was found to be resurrected in the Fantastic Four series). Warren calls Scott to come see Jean, who rushes out of his house leaving Maddy angry and distraught once again. Scott is struggling to decide how he feels about Jean's return, which is compounded by the fact that he doesn't have the courage to tell her that he's now married to Maddy. Scott also lacked the courage to tell Maddie about Jean's return. He let her believe that meeting up with his old buddy Warren was more important to him than working out their marital problems. I'd find it easier to forgive Scott if he'd blurted out "Jean's alive!" At least then Madelyne would have understood what was going on and had time to get over her anger before she encountered the demons. (Or she could have followed Scott to New York and confronted Jean with baby Nathan in her arms.) <snipped>Beast and Iceman arrive and are overjoyed to see Jean again. Cyclops leaves to take a walk to come to terms with his feelings and Iceman and Beast convince him to join them in the new venture that Warren is organizing. <snipped> A very long walk. At least two weeks passed between Jean's tantrum that her old team-mates had actually gotten lives outside the X-Men while she was gone, and Hank and Bobby's tracking down Scott to tell him about Warren's idea for a new team. |
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Post by spoon on Jun 20, 2015 21:11:15 GMT -5
I think the first X-Factor issues that I read we're Inferno or sometime around then. I started reading the book more regularly a few issues after that. Having not started the X-books until after Jean had come back, her resurrection didn't irk me.
I just re-read #1. I'm not a big fan of the Layton/Guice issues of X-Factor. I think Louise Simonson had a better handle on the characters. I think the gimmick and the events are a little forced. There were a lot of things going on with the X-Men at in just a few months that complicated things. Cyclops had returned to the X-Men for a short stint. Madelyne got pregnant and gave birth to Nathan Christopher. Cyke loses a battle for leadership. The New Defenders broke up, and Jean is discovered at the bottom of Jamaica Bay. The most troubling part is having Scott leave his infant son. If Scott and Maddy were childless, it probably wouldn't cause nearly as much of a stir.
The situation had huge repercussions. Claremont had it out for Cyclops from this point on. Right after Scott has a child, he leaves his son. It undermines that event. On the other hand, it could be that X-Factor was already planned and Claremont came up with the pregnancy to undermine X-Factor. But seemingly to punish Cyclops as a character, from this point, Claremont retroactively turned Wolverine's unrequited love of Jean into a mutual attraction. He retcons it via Classic X-Men back-up stories and inserts it into Uncanny as well. So Scott leaving Maddie in X-Factor #1 has huge repercussions for the other X-books.
#1 has few plotholes and problems. The mutant hunter cover story is problematic, and Scott sensibly has problems with it before accepting it. Also, I'd think Bobby and Hank would be pissed that Warren waiting two weeks to tell them that Jean is alive. It's also a story that complicates things by avoiding conversations that would be inevitable. I'd expect Jean to resume her relationship with Scott right where they left off. Realistically, I don't think Scott could avoid telling Jean about his marriage for more than a day or two. But I'll have to see how I feel about that with this re-reading of the series.
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Post by spoon on Jun 21, 2015 10:20:44 GMT -5
I've re-read #2. I actually like it a lot more than #1. This issue does a better job addressing the problematic situation with Scott and Maddie. Scott makes a phone call back home, but the number is disconnected. If the call had occurred earlier, and if Scott had told Maddie why he was going, I think it would have Scott's behavior more forgivable (and I say this as a big Cyclops fan).
I think the quieter, talking scenes (like Scott-Warren-Cameron and Jean-Rusty-Scott) work better in this issue. But what's up with Warren conducting business in this tighty-whities? Bonus points for bringing Vera Cantor back in a very unexpected way. And Dr. Maddicks was from Beast's stint in Amazing Adventures.
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Post by Pharozonk on Jun 21, 2015 10:26:47 GMT -5
And Dr. Maddicks was from Beast's stint in Amazing Adventures. I never knew who the character was since Layton never goes in depth into his past. What's his relationship with Beast? |
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Post by spoon on Jun 21, 2015 10:37:16 GMT -5
And Dr. Maddicks was from Beast's stint in Amazing Adventures. I never knew who the character was since Layton never goes in depth into his past. What's his relationship with Beast? It's been a while since I read that issue, but I believe he's the scientist who sabotages Hank's experiment. Hank is experimenting with a formula that ends up making him gray and furry. He's not blue yet in that first issue. Dr. Maddicks supposedly dies, which is why Hank is surprised to see him alive in X-Factor #2. |
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Post by fanboystranger on Jun 21, 2015 11:34:06 GMT -5
My own take on the Cyclops situation is that he knew subconciously something wasn't right with Maddie, but he didn't understand what it was yet. Later, we'd have that retconned into the character with Sinister's obsession with the Summers bloodline and his machinations at the orphanage, but at the time, it did seem completely out of character.
However, I think it also showed that something was always wrong with Scott psychologically, something that really comes to a head in X-F 13 and 14. He has such an inferiority complex and fear of abandonment that he leaves his family for the only place he ever felt he belonged, his surrogate "family", the original X-Men. He's one of those people who can't handle being alone as he only finds purpose with others as he doesn't truly value himself. Quiet family life couldn't bring him fulfillment because he didn't feel he was worthy of it. It's certainly a dick move, but it is a moment that a lot of young fathers from abusive backgrounds do deal with-- the feeling that they don't deserve this kind of happiness and that they will only screw it up. In some ways, I see Scott Summers as Don Draper from Mad Men-- remarkably brilliant in a professional sense, but so troubled and insecure that people will discover that he's a fraud that he leads a tremendously self-destructive lifestyle that destroys his relationships with the people he loves. Subconciously, he doesn't feel worthy of that love. Scott Summers does the same thing, except his self-destructive lifestyle is running around fighting supervillains in a world that hates and fears the idea that he even exists. It's only meaning Scott finds in his life, but it comes at the cost of tremendous suffering. I think the last decade of Cyclops stories, hack-y as many of them are, really demonstrates this, too.
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Post by Pharozonk on Jun 21, 2015 11:40:11 GMT -5
In some ways, I see Scott Summers as Don Draper from Mad Men-- remarkably brilliant in a professional sense, but so troubled and insecure that people will discover that he's a fraud that he leads a tremendously self-destructive lifestyle that destroys his relationships with the people he loves. I find your comparison to Don Draper to be incredibly apt. I've only just started watching Mad Men and there are definitely shades of Scott in Don Draper. Don is a man who constantly runs from his past and hides in a false life he built for himself, unable to come to terms with who he is. In many ways, Scott is the same kind of guy. |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jun 21, 2015 16:58:24 GMT -5
If Marvel was going to go through with that nonsensical return of Jean Grey, they should have addressed the Madelyne situation immediately. Maddie was not created as a clone bred in one of Mr. Sinister's labs; she was just a woman who looked like Jean, and with whom Scott learned that there is life after the death of a loved one. In an interview, Chris Claremont wrote that she was sort of his gift to Cyclops, who had had a pretty shitty life up to then.
If Marvel really wanted to bring the original five X-Men back (which was apparently the case), the powers that be should have just swallowed the pill and revealed that Maddie had been a manifestation of the Phoenix or something, instead of having her "disappear" for months on end and making Scott appear like a complete jerk. And one thing Cyclops was not was a jerk. Up to X-Factor, he had always been the starched long underwear type, the eternal boy scout, the guy you could depend on. Not the brightest of the lot, not the strongest, not the most exciting, but definitely the most disciplined. His abandoning his wife and child was so completely out of character that he should have been revealed to be a fake, not Maddie!
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Post by fanboystranger on Jun 21, 2015 17:23:09 GMT -5
If Marvel was going to go through with that nonsensical return of Jean Grey, they should have addressed the Madelyne situation immediately. Maddie was not created as a clone bred in one of Mr. Sinister's labs; she was just a woman who looked like Jean, and with whom Scott learned that there is life after the death of a loved one. In an interview, Chris Claremont wrote that she was sort of his gift to Cyclops, who had had a pretty shitty life up to then. If Marvel really wanted to bring the original five X-Men back (which was apparently the case), the powers that be should have just swallowed the pill and revealed that Maddie had been a manifestation of the Phoenix or something, instead of having her "disappear" for months on end and making Scott appear like a complete jerk. And one thing Cyclops was not was a jerk. Up to X-Factor, he had always been the starched long underwear type, the eternal boy scout, the guy you could depend on. Not the brightest of the lot, not the strongest, not the most exciting, but definitely the most disciplined. His abandoning his wife and child was so completely out of character that he should have been revealed to be a fake, not Maddie! I do agree with your first point about having a plan about Maddie up front rather than developing it on the fly and resolving it in a crossover years later, but I also feel that there were glimpses of Scott breaking before this. In his earliest appearances, when he's not in action, he's shown as shy and withdrawn, afraid to talk to Jean despite his feelings. That's pretty typical teenage behavior, but most teenagers aren't orphans thrown from an exploding with their younger brother (then that younger brother is taken away while you still sit in the orphanage). Previous to that, he's taken in by Erik the Red to commit crimes, just looking for somewhere to belong. Jean dies, Jean comes back. Later, he'd discover that the father he thought dead is cruising around outer space with a sexy space skunk, which can be interpreted as a betrayal by someone who should have been close to him. Then Jean "dies" for the second time, leaving him without his lover and best friend. He's marooned in the Caribbean, and immediately hooks up with Lee Forrester, again trying to make himself useful but mostly because he can't stand being alone. He dumps her and goes back to the X-Men, the only place where he feels he matters. He only leaves when he's beaten by Storm, which is essentially them throwing him out, another betrayal by those closest to him. He tries to settle down with Maddie, but almost immediately bails because in the back of his mind, he's waiting for the other show to drop. I think the pieces were there, but no one had tried to tie them together yet. It was Louise Simonson who pulled them together. |
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Post by sabongero on Jun 21, 2015 17:37:19 GMT -5
If Marvel was going to go through with that nonsensical return of Jean Grey, they should have addressed the Madelyne situation immediately. Maddie was not created as a clone bred in one of Mr. Sinister's labs; she was just a woman who looked like Jean, and with whom Scott learned that there is life after the death of a loved one. In an interview, Chris Claremont wrote that she was sort of his gift to Cyclops, who had had a pretty shitty life up to then. If Marvel really wanted to bring the original five X-Men back (which was apparently the case), the powers that be should have just swallowed the pill and revealed that Maddie had been a manifestation of the Phoenix or something, instead of having her "disappear" for months on end and making Scott appear like a complete jerk. And one thing Cyclops was not was a jerk. Up to X-Factor, he had always been the starched long underwear type, the eternal boy scout, the guy you could depend on. Not the brightest of the lot, not the strongest, not the most exciting, but definitely the most disciplined. His abandoning his wife and child was so completely out of character that he should have been revealed to be a fake, not Maddie! The last part of your post just made me thing a few years ago regarding that final issue of that Marvel Big Event, Skrull Invasion. Remember, when a Skrull ship landed and they had the real Marvel characters that were kidnapped years ago in the Marvel timeline, like Bobbi Morse, and Hank Pym, etc. I'm thinking perhaps Cyclops should have been one of the Marvel characters that was kidnapped by the Skrulls as well, just to explain Scott's OOC move in the early goings of X-Factor. |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jun 21, 2015 17:46:30 GMT -5
If Marvel was going to go through with that nonsensical return of Jean Grey, they should have addressed the Madelyne situation immediately. Maddie was not created as a clone bred in one of Mr. Sinister's labs; she was just a woman who looked like Jean, and with whom Scott learned that there is life after the death of a loved one. In an interview, Chris Claremont wrote that she was sort of his gift to Cyclops, who had had a pretty shitty life up to then. If Marvel really wanted to bring the original five X-Men back (which was apparently the case), the powers that be should have just swallowed the pill and revealed that Maddie had been a manifestation of the Phoenix or something, instead of having her "disappear" for months on end and making Scott appear like a complete jerk. And one thing Cyclops was not was a jerk. Up to X-Factor, he had always been the starched long underwear type, the eternal boy scout, the guy you could depend on. Not the brightest of the lot, not the strongest, not the most exciting, but definitely the most disciplined. His abandoning his wife and child was so completely out of character that he should have been revealed to be a fake, not Maddie! I do agree with your first point about having a plan about Maddie up front rather than developing it on the fly and resolving it in a crossover years later, but I also feel that there were glimpses of Scott breaking before this. In his earliest appearances, when he's not in action, he's shown as shy and withdrawn, afraid to talk to Jean despite his feelings. That's pretty typical teenage behavior, but most teenagers aren't orphans thrown from an exploding with their younger brother (then that younger brother is taken away while you still sit in the orphanage). Previous to that, he's taken in by Erik the Red to commit crimes, just looking for somewhere to belong. Jean dies, Jean comes back. Later, he'd discover that the father he thought dead is cruising around outer space with a sexy space skunk, which can be interpreted as a betrayal by someone who should have been close to him. Then Jean "dies" for the second time, leaving him without his lover and best friend. He's marooned in the Caribbean, and immediately hooks up with Lee Forrester, again trying to make himself useful but mostly because he can't stand being alone. He dumps her and goes back to the X-Men, the only place where he feels he matters. He only leaves when he's beaten by Storm, which is essentially them throwing him out, another betrayal by those closest to him. He tries to settle down with Maddie, but almost immediately bails because in the back of his mind, he's waiting for the other show to drop. I think the pieces were there, but no one had tried to tie them together yet. It was Louise Simonson who pulled them together. Allow me to defend my man Scott! Your analysis agrees with Louise Simonson's take on things, but it's not at all how I saw the situation developing from X-Men 137 to X-Factor 1! After Maddie was revealed not to be the Pheonix after all, he left the X-men for good to become an airplane pilot in Alaska; when he married Maddie and they had their adventure with a giant squid, Cyclops was clearly no longer considering being a superhero. He seemed quite fulfilled in his new life. He had to resume his role as Cyclops for the X-Men/Alpha Flight miniseries, but that was forced upon him. He then came back again when Ororo was abducted by Loki to become the new Thunder goddess, but again that was not something he had pusged for; he was just needed in an emergency. Upon the return of the X-Men to Earth it was the first time Scott manifested any resentment at not being a superhero anymore. Perhaps he suddenly realized that with a baby he would really become an ordinary man, without the exciting life of an adenturer? Did he resent it? That could well be, I'll grant you that. But no way could that drive him to abandon his wife and child, especially after he had so clearly stated how he had moved on after Jean's death, and how he was glad Maddie wasn't her. Cyclops was right! |
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