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Post by sabongero on Jun 21, 2015 18:40:18 GMT -5
Guys am I correct to assume that the current state of Cyclops as a villain, generally started with the X-Factor series when he was presented as somewhat of a damaged goods type of character. And the end result is the Cyclops of today. For some reason he was always the Boy Scout in some way back then.
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Post by Pharozonk on Jun 21, 2015 18:52:31 GMT -5
Guys am I correct to assume that the current state of Cyclops as a villain, generally started with the X-Factor series when he was presented as somewhat of a damaged goods type of character. And the end result is the Cyclops of today. For some reason he was always the Boy Scout in some way back then. I don't view the current character as the same Cyclops of the 80's. Simonson put Scott through a journey of acceptance and redemption for what he had done to Maddie and moved on in his life with Jean. Grant Morrison breaking him up and putting him with Emma regresses the character and removes all the character development he had under Simonson's pen, which is how we end up with the current mess of a character that we call Cyclops today.
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,872
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Post by shaxper on Jun 21, 2015 19:14:32 GMT -5
Guys am I correct to assume that the current state of Cyclops as a villain, generally started with the X-Factor series when he was presented as somewhat of a damaged goods type of character. And the end result is the Cyclops of today. For some reason he was always the Boy Scout in some way back then. Scott was damaged goods as early as issue #7 of the original series. I always remember that moment when he was left in charge, was terrified to leave the room in case Cerebro detected a threat, and so just hung his head, realizing that he had no idea how to balance responsibility and living. It was really just a matter of time before that inner conflict evolved into something darker. Remember the beginning to #96, with him alone in the woods, blasting trees out of blind fury because he'd failed to prevent the death of John Proudstar while under his command? Scott was already a pretty pathetic and fallen character by the time of #201 (the fight with Storm over leadership of the X-Men). I think Layton was mostly playing off of that story. Scott was always heading down a dark path. Granted, I didn't see him becoming a villain, per se, and have not read the new stuff, but Layton was really just further developing what had been in progress all along.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jun 22, 2015 6:08:34 GMT -5
It might be surprising in a Cyclops fan, but I don't mind the current "Cyclops as (relativly) bad guy" arc as much as I could have. At least, unlike the "Cyclops as deadbeat dad" concept, this development seems to proceed from what the character went through.
As shaxper says, Scott was an insecure kid (and it wasn't about his eye beams, no matter what the guy thought). Other early Marvel characters were on the shy side too: Peter Parker was a bookworm, Bruce Banner was a skinny wallflower, Don Blake was a small and limping fellow, even Reed Richards was afraid to propose to Sue. Ah, but then Peter Parker had the amazing powers of Spider-Man and was an undisputedd genius; Bruce Banner could turn into the incredible Hulk and was an undisputed genius; Don Blake could turn into a frickin' GOD and, without being a genius, was smart enough to be a medical doctor; Reed Richards was the geniusest of all Marvel geniuses and had good looks too.
Scott Summers? A shy guy with average intelligence, no social skills, no great athletic prowess, and probably zits too. He fell in love with basically the first girl he met, and had to compete for her attention with a blonde millionaire dude who could fly! I can understand why he'd feel unequal to the task of being an aspiring leader. However, and that's why he owes so much to Xavier, the job saved him. To be the X-Men's leader, he had to grow into an efficient individual (which also gave him an excuse to distance himself from his oh so uncomfortable emotions). I'm sure he must have done a lot of push-ups and burned the midnight oil studying when growing up. That never made him as strong or knowledgeable as many of his colleagues, but it did make him disciplined. At the end of his run as a regular X-Man, say in issue 138, he had grown into a confident man at last; one who could not only survive the loss of his lover, but one who could grow out of the associated grief and pain.
When X-Factor came along, he was not only written back to an insecure guy, but as an outright emotional wreck. I'd understand if that had been caused by a nervous breakdown brought by Jean's return, a temporary situation, but somehow that's the way he was written for years after that (and naturally, his dumping his wife and kid on a whim made him look very bad indeed, as it should).
Morrison handled Scott as emotionally damaged in the early 2000s, like most writers before him, even if having him have an affair (instead Jean, whom many fans wanted to be sacrificed on Wolverine's altar) was an unexpected idea. Not one I thought made a lot of sense, but unexpected and somehow interesting.
It took Whedon's Astonishing X-Men series to make the character matter again, by giving him a harder edge. Scott as leader of the few remaining mutants went even deeper into his unemotional persona, paradoxically adopting his son Cable's attitude of "the ends justify the means". Is it a path I'd want a hero walk down? Probably not, since that way lies villainhood! But I can see how a guy like Cyclops could see no other option. As I said above, he's not an intellectual.
His current "Revolution" shtick looks like a nervous breakdown again, brought about by his guilt over killing Xavier. I don't know how that will pan out, but I'd rather have him go all efficient and badass when he's having a breakdown than have him mope and complain!
Anyway... it's to the recent writers' credit that this character has grown into one that matters in the Marvel universe, instead of ranking along the likes of Stingray or Torpedo.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jun 22, 2015 6:49:08 GMT -5
I've always pictured that being with Emma broke his brain... that makes the personality change (Whether you like it or hate it) work alot better
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Post by fanboystranger on Jun 22, 2015 9:30:10 GMT -5
I've always pictured that being with Emma broke his brain... that makes the personality change (Whether you like it or hate it) work alot better I think that's the built-in "out" if they ever decide to change directions with current Cyclops. The affair with Emma did begin on the psychic plane, and it's not too hard to say that she's been influencing his actions all along. Of course, that means turning Emma into a villain again, which I don't think is going to happen for some time.
It makes more sense than the "being the vessel for Apocalypse left psychic residue" stuff that lead into Morrison's run.
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Post by fanboystranger on Jun 22, 2015 9:33:21 GMT -5
Morrison handled Scott as emotionally damaged in the early 2000s, like most writers before him, even if having him have an affair (instead Jean, whom many fans wanted to be sacrificed on Wolverine's altar) was an unexpected idea. Not one I thought made a lot of sense, but unexpected and somehow interesting. It's that Apocalypse stuff that culminated in The Search for Cyclops that set the stage for Morrison's Cyclops. Like most '90s x-stuff, it wasn't any good, so it was kinda swept under the rug as time has gone by, although Morrison does refer to it in his run.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jun 22, 2015 10:42:38 GMT -5
Morrison handled Scott as emotionally damaged in the early 2000s, like most writers before him, even if having him have an affair (instead Jean, whom many fans wanted to be sacrificed on Wolverine's altar) was an unexpected idea. Not one I thought made a lot of sense, but unexpected and somehow interesting. It's that Apocalypse stuff that culminated in The Search for Cyclops that set the stage for Morrison's Cyclops. Like most '90s x-stuff, it wasn't any good, so it was kinda swept under the rug as time has gone by, although Morrison does refer to it in his run. I didn't read those stories, so I have no idea: was Cyclops being "tainted" by his merging with Apocalypse something mentioned before Morrison came aboard? Not that it would be wrong for Morrison to have come up with the concept himself, but I'm curious about how much he built on what came before and how much he made up. He never shied away from just doing his own stuff (Magneto being all-out evil again, Shaw suddenly being a telepath, Weapon X being weapon ten...)
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jun 22, 2015 10:49:20 GMT -5
I've always pictured that being with Emma broke his brain... that makes the personality change (Whether you like it or hate it) work alot better I think that's the built-in "out" if they ever decide to change directions with current Cyclops. The affair with Emma did begin on the psychic plane, and it's not too hard to say that she's been influencing his actions all along. Of course, that means turning Emma into a villain again, which I don't think is going to happen for some time.
It makes more sense than the "being the vessel for Apocalypse left psychic residue" stuff that lead into Morrison's run.
Another trump card the PTB can pull out is that Scott's choosing to remain with Emma after Jean's death is an in-story retcon: in the initial timeline, he went away on his own and just gave up on everything, leading to the apocalyptic future we saw in Morrison's last story arc. It was the Phoenix, reaching back through time, who pushed him in Emma's arms to give us... well, today. Personally I would leave things as they are, though.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jun 22, 2015 11:15:33 GMT -5
I think Emma has to be a bad guy again at some point.. she's MUCH better evil than as a snarky good guy (even though snarky good guys are all the rage). We need to get the Stepford Cuckoos battle it out with her at some point, after all.
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Post by fanboystranger on Jun 22, 2015 13:40:52 GMT -5
It's that Apocalypse stuff that culminated in The Search for Cyclops that set the stage for Morrison's Cyclops. Like most '90s x-stuff, it wasn't any good, so it was kinda swept under the rug as time has gone by, although Morrison does refer to it in his run. I didn't read those stories, so I have no idea: was Cyclops being "tainted" by his merging with Apocalypse something mentioned before Morrison came aboard? Not that it would be wrong for Morrison to have come up with the concept himself, but I'm curious about how much he built on what came before and how much he made up. He never shied away from just doing his own stuff (Magneto being all-out evil again, Shaw suddenly being a telepath, Weapon X being weapon ten...) Yes, it was a plot point in The Search for Cyclops. Cyke wasn't himself, but he wasn't controlled by Apocalypse, either. I think it was Cable that drove out the Apocalypse possession-- this is how much of an impression that story left on me-- but Scott was left with deep seated anger, mood swings, and a massive existensial crisis. Morrison made it more esoteric-- Emma finds the black bug deep in Scott's subconcious, something Morrison also played around with in The Invisibles. Scott was too ashamed and too proud to go to Jean for help, which is why he started his "therapy" with Emma. Of course, it turned into something more complex as that therapy developed.
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Post by sabongero on Jun 22, 2015 13:58:18 GMT -5
Yes, it was a plot point in The Search for Cyclops. Cyke wasn't himself, but he wasn't controlled by Apocalypse, either. I think it was Cable that drove out the Apocalypse possession-- this is how much of an impression that story left on me-- but Scott was left with deep seated anger, mood swings, and a massive existensial crisis. Morrison made it more esoteric-- Emma finds the black bug deep in Scott's subconcious, something Morrison also played around with in The Invisibles. Scott was too ashamed and too proud to go to Jean for help, which is why he started his "therapy" with Emma. Of course, it turned into something more complex as that therapy developed.
I was just wondering, back on New X-Men during Grant Morrison's run, Emma and Scott were having sex in the psychic world. Is that considered cheating? Even though they never physically manifested their sexual encounter at that time.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jun 22, 2015 16:03:48 GMT -5
I guess that depends on your point of view... I'd think Jean, as a fellow psychic, would think so. If one wasn't a psychic, how it could well be considered more of a really good dream, right? I wonder if they did something about that in the Dan Slott She-Hulk series.. seems like the sorta thing he would write
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Post by fanboystranger on Jun 22, 2015 16:47:39 GMT -5
I guess that depends on your point of view... I'd think Jean, as a fellow psychic, would think so. If one wasn't a psychic, how it could well be considered more of a really good dream, right? I wonder if they did something about that in the Dan Slott She-Hulk series.. seems like the sorta thing he would write I always thought that Jean let them off easy. She steps up to Emma and tells her to knock it off, but kinda tells Scott, "I know you're going through some stuff, but if you won't let me help you, get some help."
Morrison will admit to being a little crazy when it comes to Jean Gray, though. He wrote a nasty letter to Claremont when Jean died on the moon, but thought better of sending it and burnt it instead. He wrote a song called "The Day Jean Grey Died" that he eventually transformed into the song the kid that Quentin Quire hates sings in "Riot at Xavier's". Ragged Robin was kinda an idealized cross between Jean Grey and Jill Thompson, and Grant would eventually marry a redhead.
Peter David actually did a riff on psychic cheating in his Madrox mini.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jun 22, 2015 17:13:49 GMT -5
Yes, it was a plot point in The Search for Cyclops. Cyke wasn't himself, but he wasn't controlled by Apocalypse, either. I think it was Cable that drove out the Apocalypse possession-- this is how much of an impression that story left on me-- but Scott was left with deep seated anger, mood swings, and a massive existensial crisis. Morrison made it more esoteric-- Emma finds the black bug deep in Scott's subconcious, something Morrison also played around with in The Invisibles. Scott was too ashamed and too proud to go to Jean for help, which is why he started his "therapy" with Emma. Of course, it turned into something more complex as that therapy developed.
I was just wondering, back on New X-Men during Grant Morrison's run, Emma and Scott were having sex in the psychic world. Is that considered cheating? Even though they never physically manifested their sexual encounter at that time. I'd consider it cheating, personally. However, Jean was taken aback when she realized that her husband had resisted Emma's more... physical advances, so I don't know how she viewed it herself. Perhaps she still felt a little guilty about dry humping Wolverine on the cover of Uncanny # 394 and went easy on Scott due to that "psychic vs psychic" technicality! Anyway, I think the most beautiful moment between those two is when she called him "my best friend" as she was dying. Gahd, did that bring a tear to my eye. When you're about to go, you focus on what's really important; not the fights, not the problems, but what the other person means to you.
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