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Post by sabongero on Jun 22, 2015 17:41:59 GMT -5
I'd consider it cheating, personally. However, Jean was taken aback when she realized that her husband had resisted Emma's more... physical advances, so I don't know how she viewed it herself. Perhaps she still felt a little guilty about dry humping Wolverine on the cover of Uncanny # 394 and went easy on Scott due to that "psychic vs psychic" technicality! Anyway, I think the most beautiful moment between those two is when she called him "my best friend" as she was dying. Gahd, did that bring a tear to my eye. When you're about to go, you focus on what's really important; not the fights, not the problems, but what the other person means to you. Roquefort Raider what title and issue did she say that?
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Post by sabongero on Jun 22, 2015 18:46:24 GMT -5
Bring the discussion back to X-Factor... here is an amazing article on the idea of X-Factor, and who would be the fifth female member of the group, as per the recollections of the Marvel bullpen, and X-Men and incoming X-Factor creative teams at the time. This is a very informative article as I didn't even know Chris Claremont was adamantly against the idea of bringing back Jean and that he suggested Jean's sister Sara to become the fifth member. Also, I didn't know Kurt Busiek was the brainchild of the idea behind The Return of Jean Grey in the pages of the Avengers and Fantastic Four. secretsbehindthexmen.blogspot.com/2012/03/jean-greys-return-in-x-factor.html
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Post by sabongero on Jun 22, 2015 19:15:38 GMT -5
Madelyne Pryor's response to Scott Summers when he asked her, "Are you Jean?"
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jun 22, 2015 20:16:26 GMT -5
I'd consider it cheating, personally. However, Jean was taken aback when she realized that her husband had resisted Emma's more... physical advances, so I don't know how she viewed it herself. Perhaps she still felt a little guilty about dry humping Wolverine on the cover of Uncanny # 394 and went easy on Scott due to that "psychic vs psychic" technicality! Anyway, I think the most beautiful moment between those two is when she called him "my best friend" as she was dying. Gahd, did that bring a tear to my eye. When you're about to go, you focus on what's really important; not the fights, not the problems, but what the other person means to you. Roquefort Raider what title and issue did she say that? I read it in a trade paperback, but it should be in New X-Men #150, the issue Magneto kills her.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jun 22, 2015 20:17:22 GMT -5
Madelyne Pryor's response to Scott Summers when he asked her, "Are you Jean?" I liked Maddie. She deserved better than to be retconned into an unwanted plot device.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jun 22, 2015 20:35:23 GMT -5
Bring the discussion back to X-Factor... here is an amazing article on the idea of X-Factor, and who would be the fifth female member of the group, as per the recollections of the Marvel bullpen, and X-Men and incoming X-Factor creative teams at the time. This is a very informative article as I didn't even know Chris Claremont was adamantly against the idea of bringing back Jean and that he suggested Jean's sister Sara to become the fifth member. Also, I didn't know Kurt Busiek was the brainchild of the idea behind The Return of Jean Grey in the pages of the Avengers and Fantastic Four. secretsbehindthexmen.blogspot.com/2012/03/jean-greys-return-in-x-factor.htmlExcellent find! I new about the Kurt Busiek thing, but I don't think I realized just how much Claremont was pissed off.
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Post by sabongero on Jun 22, 2015 20:45:18 GMT -5
I liked Maddie. She deserved better than to be retconned into an unwanted plot device. You are definitely correct. And who knows what they could have done with Madelyne and Scott (and baby Nathan), if Jim Shooter decided to go with the direction that Chris Claremont wanted which was utilizing Jean Grey's sister Sara as the fifth member of X-Factor, instead of bringing back Jean Grey in Avengers and Fantastic Four that season to get the ball rolling to the original team members of the X-Men as X-Factor. It's like having a solid character suddenly placed on a pause because her direction is suddenly thrown in the garbage because at the 11th hour there is a decision to bring back a superstar. So Madelyne is placed in limbo. And we know what happens to characters placed in limbo or in a lengthy time in limbo, they usually become characters that are character assassinated by other writers to follow. It's sad, and at the same time adds to the convoluted "mess" that is the X-Men universe of the 90s. At the same time, The Boy Scout went downhill from there. It's too bad, I really liked Cyke.
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Post by sabongero on Jun 22, 2015 20:52:50 GMT -5
Excellent find! I new about the Kurt Busiek thing, but I don't think I realized just how much Claremont was pissed off. Here's another find regarding Scott Summers. It's interesting to note just how much Scott Summers' character was damaged because of the return of Jean Grey and the birth of X-Factor. It seems the character will never recover his heroic persona pre X-Factor #1. It's sad, but he is a casualty of what I have always called "Editorial sabotage." community.fortunecity.ws/tatooine/niven/142/opinion/opi18.html
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2015 21:03:03 GMT -5
Bring the discussion back to X-Factor... here is an amazing article on the idea of X-Factor, and who would be the fifth female member of the group, as per the recollections of the Marvel bullpen, and X-Men and incoming X-Factor creative teams at the time. This is a very informative article as I didn't even know Chris Claremont was adamantly against the idea of bringing back Jean and that he suggested Jean's sister Sara to become the fifth member. Also, I didn't know Kurt Busiek was the brainchild of the idea behind The Return of Jean Grey in the pages of the Avengers and Fantastic Four. secretsbehindthexmen.blogspot.com/2012/03/jean-greys-return-in-x-factor.htmlKurt wasn't so much the brainchild behind it, as he tells the story, editorial was determined to bring her back and he opposed the idea (he had stopped reading X-Men when they killed her after being a huge fan, but thought once done is done it should stay done), but when it was apparent they were going to do it regardless of what any of the writers said, he came up with the idea of how they could do it and they went with that. -M
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jun 24, 2015 8:04:55 GMT -5
What I can't get my head around is how anyone could have thought that they could pull a stunt like Cyclops dumping his wife and child like that without destroying the character. The lame excuse from that time, "she told me not to come back if I walked out that door" doesn't help, it even makes things worse.
If bringing Jean back had to be done, I think it would have been better to go all the way with the retcon. Jean returns, Maddie simply vanishes, and everyone realizes that she was never more than a manifestation of the Phoenix, created to take the place of the character killed in X-Men #137.
This might actually have worked because when he introduced Maddie, Chris Claremont was deliberately dropping hints that she wasn't a " normal" person: there had been a child named Madelyne Pryor in a hospital visited by Spider-Woman shortly after Jean's death; Maddie's mind couldn't be read by Charles Xavier; she was a dead ringer for Jean; there was no trace of a Madelyne Pryor in official documents; she was the sole survivor of a 747 crash that occurred at the same time as Jean's death, and we saw her walking off the blaze with a Phoenix effect behind her. All of that was later used in the "Maddie is a Phoenix-connected creation of Mr. Sinister" retcon, but I think it would have been less damaging for all involved for Maddie to have been a Phoenix avatar all along.
Vanishing into thin air after Jean's return, she would have left Scott a single father and brooding widower, not a scumbag deadbeat dad. Much better as far as public relations go, if you ask me.
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,872
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Post by shaxper on Jun 24, 2015 8:57:49 GMT -5
What I can't get my head around is how anyone could have thought that they could pull a stunt like Cyclops dumping his wife and child like that without destroying the character. The lame excuse from that time, "she told me not to come back if I walked out that door" doesn't help, it even makes things worse. I get the sense that this happened because even Layton wasn't comfortable with undoing Scott's marriage to Maddy; Shooter had simply dictated it. If you respect the character and the relationship, you don't give Scott a clean out; you make him suffer for doing it. And while that damages the character in the long run, what was being done was already damaging to what had occurred before. I think Layton had more respect for the past than consideration for the future, and I can respect that.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jun 24, 2015 9:29:47 GMT -5
What I can't get my head around is how anyone could have thought that they could pull a stunt like Cyclops dumping his wife and child like that without destroying the character. The lame excuse from that time, "she told me not to come back if I walked out that door" doesn't help, it even makes things worse. I get the sense that this happened because even Layton wasn't comfortable with undoing Scott's marriage to Maddy; Shooter had simply dictated it. If you respect the character and the relationship, you don't give Scott a clean out; you make him suffer for doing it. And while that damages the character in the long run, what was being done was already damaging to what had occurred before. I think Layton had more respect for the past than consideration for the future, and I can respect that. There's a feeling of improvisation about that period: the baby remained nameless for months and months, as if nobody wanted to handle the matter; Scott took half a year and more to go back to his wife only to discover that she had disappeared and all traces of her existence had been erased... It really feels like no one had a clear idea of what to do with the Summers family and with Jean's return, and that the problems were just pushed away in the future, to be resolved at a later date (and preferably by someone else). Jean's return isn't only bad from an old reader's perspective; even in the context of the character's history it would make little sense for her to join X-Factor. Accepting the idea that she had been replaced by a doppelgänger in issue #101, it means that the Jean that was extracted from a pod at the bottom of Jamaica Bay is the one who had turned her back on superheroing for good in X-Men #95. That Jean had been involved in the events that would bring forth the Phoenix solely because she had been abducted by Steven Lang's sentinels. Coming back to life years after her "death", finding her lover married to another woman, facing a life turned topsy-turvy by the madness of a superhero's career, I can't for the life of me understand why she'd decide to resume her career as Marvel Girl... and especially not when it also involves fomenting fear and hatred toward her fellow mutants, as per the original mandate of the X-Factor mutant hunters. I think you may be right about a "no easy way out" mandate regarding Cyclops. I've no idea how that played out, but it would fit with the way things were done at Marvel under Jim Shooter's aegis. I just think that if you're going to pull a stunt as damaging to the willing suspension of disbelief as Jean's return, you might as well go all the way.
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,872
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Post by shaxper on Jun 24, 2015 10:02:11 GMT -5
Coming back to life years after her "death", finding her lover married to another woman, facing a life turned topsy-turvy by the madness of a superhero's career, I can't for the life of me understand why she'd decide to resume her career as Marvel Girl... and especially not when it also involves fomenting fear and hatred toward her fellow mutants, as per the original mandate of the X-Factor mutant hunters. Excellent point that I'd never really considered before. There is an answer though -- with so little of her life making sense, hanging around her old friends would seem like the optimal solution, and, remember, she didn't know about Maddy and Nathan Christopher at first, so Scott might have seemed like the greatest piece of stability in her world. Once she found out about Scott, the most likely bet would have been for her to go to her sister, but her sister was missing by that point, as was Professor X, and the X-Men were being led by Magneto. I get the sense that Layton (and Simonson after) were careful about eliminating these outs for Jean without drawing much attention to what they were doing. They absolutely left Jean with no where else to go.
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Post by paulie on Jun 24, 2015 14:14:09 GMT -5
The more I read these comments the more I realize that this title was the death of Marvel for me. Sure, I enjoyed Apocalypse as a bad guy, the introduction of Archangel, and some terrific Walt Simonson art but this is where my personal Marvel universe changed for the worse.
What should have happened is that Scott and Maddie would have never been seen again after X-Men 175.
Of course that is not how it works in comic book land.
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Post by Honeystinger on Jul 1, 2015 20:20:01 GMT -5
Guys am I correct to assume that the current state of Cyclops as a villain, generally started with the X-Factor series when he was presented as somewhat of a damaged goods type of character. And the end result is the Cyclops of today. For some reason he was always the Boy Scout in some way back then. I don't view the current character as the same Cyclops of the 80's. Simonson put Scott through a journey of acceptance and redemption for what he had done to Maddie and moved on in his life with Jean. Grant Morrison breaking him up and putting him with Emma regresses the character and removes all the character development he had under Simonson's pen, which is how we end up with the current mess of a character that we call Cyclops today. Scott won't be redeemed in my mind until he at least tries to atone ( in the 616! for what he did to Madelyne. He did a token guilt-wallow when she died, and was promptly assured by a doting Jean that "It's not your fault." Then Warren let him off the hook by blaming Mr. Sinister. Shortly thereafter, Scott's X-Factor pals were congratulating him on his victory. Scott's idea of dealing with Maddie was to blast her with his eye-beams to stop her from gaining another chance at life.
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