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Post by wildfire2099 on Jul 3, 2015 6:46:47 GMT -5
John Byrne’s reboot of Superman completely removed Superboy from Kal-El’s career as a superhero, retconning Superman as only putting on his cape once he was an adult. However, how could the Legion be inspired by Superboy if he now never existed in the DCU? As you may have seen in shaxper’s reviews of the post-Crisis Superman books, things got messy fast. Levitz was forced to salvage the situation as best as he could and write a way out of the paradox he now found himself in. This led to the convoluted "Pocket Universe" saga that ultimately revealed that the Superboy and the Smallville the Legion knew were simply constructs of the Time Trapper all along and that any interaction they had with Superboy was never with the real thing. I contend to this day, in the face of many disagreeing Legion fans, that Superboy wasn't essential to the Legion. In their best selling days, he hardly made an appearance, the Legion had booted him from his own book not once, but twice, and even had a couple of different storylines designed to prevent him from ever showing up again. The "solution" was stupid and (as you note) convoluted. He should have just been excised from the book like he was later and be done with it. But then, that's the Crisis problem. They wanted to have it both ways with their poorly executed "soft reboot". Which was impossible and had all kinds of cluster%$#^ery problems down the line. If they were going to change things, they should have changed things and moved on. Plus I swear Levitz had far more problem with the loss of Supergirl than Superboy (it always seemed a "crush" level to me). And the Matrix solution was even worse than the Superboy one. My first Legion was the post-zero hour re-boot, so I agree 100%... I always thought Superboy's presence took away from the Legion, to be honest. he demands too much attention. |
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Post by fanboystranger on Jul 3, 2015 7:33:26 GMT -5
This is my favorite incarnation of the Legion. The storytelling was top-notch, truly mature and sophisticated, with plots within plots. Readers rediscovered the universe with the Legion, bits of information being released a little at a time creating a rich tapestry of the future that may have frustrated some readers at the time, but ultimately made us more invested in the world-building that was going on. The scope was massive-- the whole universe of the Legion was in play-- and it gave us a sense of true surprise that the best imaginative Legion stories had (and seemed to have lost over the past twenty years, minus some of DnA's work). While the tone of the book was superficially dark, it was actually about hope and making the universe a better place, even if the universe resisted.
It would fall apart when Giffen left, but for three years, Legion of Superheroes was one of the most ambitious, interesting, and imaginative comics around. Not every issue is a standout-- and it particularly suffers when Giffen is not at least doing breakdowns-- but as a whole, it's hard to find a more ambitious and interesting mainstream superhero comic run.
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Post by Pharozonk on Jul 3, 2015 8:31:15 GMT -5
I contend to this day, in the face of many disagreeing Legion fans, that Superboy wasn't essential to the Legion. In their best selling days, he hardly made an appearance, the Legion had booted him from his own book not once, but twice, and even had a couple of different storylines designed to prevent him from ever showing up again. The "solution" was stupid and (as you note) convoluted. He should have just been excised from the book like he was later and be done with it. I'm of two minds on the issue. On one hand, I agree that Superboy's presence in the Legion should be given small doses. Having him as a constant member during the Adventure Comics days was fun and created great stories, but it's no coincidence that the Legion's most commercially and critically successful era (the Levitz years) were when Superboy only occasionally showed up, allowing the Legion to grow as a distinct DC property. However, outright removing Superboy from the equation damaged the property in a way that it never truly recovered from this day. One of the core principles of the Legion was that they were inspired by the heroes of today. To remove Superboy is to remove their whole reason for existing. Superman's actions today inspired the heroes of tomorrow and it's a poignant reason for the Legion to continue to make the universe a better place. |
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Post by Pharozonk on Jul 3, 2015 8:37:02 GMT -5
And when he did have action, he handled it in the nine-panel marvelously. Fights don't have to be big splash pages or large panels to be effective. With comics, there's always been a lot of skill dealing with "what you don't see" and Keith was masterful at it. I think the method worked on a case by case basis. Sometimes the simplicity of the image worked in Giffen's favor and was powerful (i.e. Mon-El vs the Time Trapper). Other times, the lack of complex motion makes the actions seen ambiguous and difficult for the reader to understand (i.e. Blok vs Roxxas). |
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Post by Paradox on Jul 3, 2015 8:50:22 GMT -5
I'm of two minds on the issue. On one hand, I agree that Superboy's presence in the Legion should be given small doses. Having him as a constant member during the Adventure Comics days was fun and created great stories, but it's no coincidence that the Legion's most commercially and critically successful era (the Levitz years) were when Superboy only occasionally showed up, allowing the Legion to grow as a distinct DC property. However, outright removing Superboy from the equation damaged the property in a way that it never truly recovered from this day. Yes, admittedly, many fans were not of a like mind to me and others, and sales were definitely hurt (as you noted in your preamble). It always seemed kind of a spite move by people that were honked off at Crisis getting rid of Superboy in the first place (sort of), but...I'm not psychic, so I can't really say.  **shrugs** It wasn't exactly difficult to find Teen Hero substitutes by the time it came to change. The Teen Titans seem (to me, mind you) actually a BETTER inspiration. Even marketing-wise, as for a long time the Legion was the second best seller at DC to said Titans. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2015 9:23:54 GMT -5
Background InformationUnfortunately, the good times were not meant to last forever. The events of Crisis were a huge thorn in the Legion’s side, creating a double-edged sword situation. On one hand, the Legion, for the most part, was immune to much of radical retooling that other franchises, such as Superman and Hawkman, felt in the post-Crisis era as their existence was 1000 years removed from the “present” DCU and their status as a top selling book gave the book freedom from sales driven changes (i.e. the Byrne revamp of Superman). On the other hand, however, it was that same lack of change that quickly made the Legion a problem franchise. John Byrne’s reboot of Superman completely removed Superboy from Kal-El’s career as a superhero, retconning Superman as only putting on his cape once he was an adult. However, how could the Legion be inspired by Superboy if he now never existed in the DCU? What you written here bothers me so much and this is one of the major reason why I have issues with John Byrne's reboot of Superman and this was a major topic/discussion at the Comic Book Store at the time of Byrne's reboot. This is why I dislike the CRISIS OF INFINITE EARTH so much because what you've written here Pharoznok is right on the money! ... To me, and I'm might be in the minority here - I think the death of LOSH is blamed on John Byrne, Marv Wolfman, and George Perez. |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jul 3, 2015 10:36:11 GMT -5
One of the best ideas from that era is the retconning (made possible by Glorith playing with the timestream) of all the alien planets with super-powered humanoid inhabitants into places that were colonized by super-powered humans, the test subjects of Dominator scientists. And since Mon-E.. er... "Valor" was the one who led all these people to new worlds where their gifts would be useful, it also explained why he was a legend to so many cultures.
What a neat and simple explanation for the presence of so many human-like aliens who just happen to have the ability to project heat or cold or to split in three. A rare case of a retcon I agree with!
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Post by Pharozonk on Jul 3, 2015 10:40:27 GMT -5
One of the best ideas from that era is the retconning (made possible by Glorith playing with the timestream) of all the alien planets with super-powered humanoid inhabitants into places that were colonized by super-powered humans, the test subjects of Dominator scientists. And since Mon-E.. er... "Valor" was the one who led all these people to new worlds where their gifts would be useful, it also explained why he was a legend to so many cultures. What a neat and simple explanation for the presence of so many human-like aliens who just happen to have the ability to project heat or cold or to split in three. A rare case of a retcon I agree with! The colonies aspect was good. The Dominator test subject stuff and Valor replacing Superboy...not so much. |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jul 3, 2015 11:13:02 GMT -5
One of the best ideas from that era is the retconning (made possible by Glorith playing with the timestream) of all the alien planets with super-powered humanoid inhabitants into places that were colonized by super-powered humans, the test subjects of Dominator scientists. And since Mon-E.. er... "Valor" was the one who led all these people to new worlds where their gifts would be useful, it also explained why he was a legend to so many cultures. What a neat and simple explanation for the presence of so many human-like aliens who just happen to have the ability to project heat or cold or to split in three. A rare case of a retcon I agree with! The colonies aspect was good. The Dominator test subject stuff and Valor replacing Superboy...not so much. Hey, what's not to like? It made great use of the test subjects from the Invasion! miniseries, which explained why so many humanoid alien species had conspicuously useful super powers! As for Valor replacing Superboy as the inspiration for the Legion, I agree that it came from the left field... Might as well have used Superman as an inspiration (why would teenagers have to be inspired by another teenager?) and replaced Superboy by Kent Shakespeare in the continuity. I mean, he even looks the part. (You really didn't like the Dominator stuff? I thought it was damn cool, myself!) |
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Post by paulie on Jul 3, 2015 11:16:35 GMT -5
And when he did have action, he handled it in the nine-panel marvelously. Fights don't have to be big splash pages or large panels to be effective. With comics, there's always been a lot of skill dealing with "what you don't see" and Keith was masterful at it. I think the method worked on a case by case basis. Sometimes the simplicity of the image worked in Giffen's favor and was powerful (i.e. Mon-El vs the Time Trapper). Other times, the lack of complex motion makes the actions seen ambiguous and difficult for the reader to understand (i.e. Blok vs Roxxas). I think the 9-panel pages helped the reader see a lot. And I think 5YL 1-12 was Giffen's best art period over all. If you don't like things happening off-page don't ever watch an Ozu film... |
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Post by paulie on Jul 3, 2015 11:20:50 GMT -5
It would fall apart when Giffen left, but for three years, Legion of Superheroes was one of the most ambitious, interesting, and imaginative comics around. Not every issue is a standout-- and it particularly suffers when Giffen is not at least doing breakdowns-- but as a whole, it's hard to find a more ambitious and interesting mainstream superhero comic run. Pithy statements that I am in exact agreement with. I will say much of the power of 1-38 depends on just how solid the entire Levtiz era was. I can't recall too many issues that were not compelling all the way up to the end and those first 38 issues (and the excellent Ultra Boy Annual) were a terrific epilogue. |
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Post by Pharozonk on Jul 3, 2015 11:24:30 GMT -5
The colonies aspect was good. The Dominator test subject stuff and Valor replacing Superboy...not so much. Hey, what's not to like? It made great use of the test subjects from the Invasion! miniseries, which explained why so many humanoid alien species had conspicuously useful super powers! As for Valor replacing Superboy as the inspiration for the Legion, I agree that it came from the left field... Might as well have used Superman as an inspiration (why would teenagers have to be inspired by another teenager?) and replaced Superboy by Kent Shakespeare in the continuity. I mean, he even looks the part. (You really didn't like the Dominator stuff? I thought it was damn cool, myself!) I think the problem with the TMK approach of tying disparate bits of continuity together is that you slowly begin making the universe much smaller. Everything is now tied together and lacks a unique sense of spontaneity that events in real life do. This can often lead to the overused "destiny and fate" motif that can often turn an original idea into a cliche fairly quickly. (see the recent Amazing Spider-man movies for proof of that). As to the Dominators, I liked them as antagonists, but I've never been fond of Invasion! or any of the other late 80's DC events (Millennium, Legends, etc.). I also think that the Dominator subplot began to get a bit drawn out as the series went on, but I'll get into that more later.  |
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Post by Pharozonk on Jul 3, 2015 12:03:56 GMT -5
Legion of Super-heroes (1989) #2
 Writer: Keith Giffen, Tom Bierbaum, Mary Bierbaum Pencils: Keith Giffen Ink: Al Gordon Color: Tom McGraw Editor: Mark Waid Grade: B+ Summary: The primary focus of this issue is on Jo Nah aka Ultra Boy. The issue opens with a group of soldiers/police chasing a young girl named Kono through the alleys of Rimbor, Jo’s home world. Meanwhile, a Khund businessman and chairman of a company are discussing how Jo’s ‘Silverale’ business is cutting into their profits and that catching Kono will lead them to Jo, whom Kono works for. Kono continues to evade the cops and eventually hides in the sewer, thinking she has escaped but is actually being watched to use her to lead them to Jo. After a brief Silverale commercial, we finally meet Jo, who is now a smuggler living in the seedy Rimbor underworld. He’s just woken up from a one night stand with a woman named Ginny and is annoyed to see the commercial playing on TV. Kono pops in and scares Ginny, making her leave in anger. Outside, Ginny is confronted by the same goons who saw Kono in the sewer and threaten to kill her unless she gives them information on Jo. Though she gives them his location, they kill her anyway. Meanwhile, in outer space, Loomis and Lydda are enjoying a catered meal courtesy of Reep. Loomis points out that the cost of their one meal could feel a family on Braal for a month, but Lydda says they should enjoy these small joys in life when they can. Back on Rimbor, the goons blow up Jo’s hideout, forcing him and Kono to fight for their lives. On Earth, Shvaugn Erin, science police officer and longtime girlfriend of Jan Arrah aka Element Lad, is returning to her home to find a note from Dirk professing his love for her. She writes it off and decides to take a bath, lamenting how hard being a SP officer is now. Little does Shvaugn realize that all her communications are being monitored by a woman named Circe, Dirk’s current lover and spy for the government. Back on Rimbor, Jo searches the wreckage of his destroyed home until he finds what he’s looking for: a tarnished shaving set from Rokk with the acronym “L.L.L” etched into it. The issue ends with a page of all black panels broken only by blue dialogue bubbles, ending with a panel of a man dressed in what appears to be Victorian era clothing. Thoughts: This issue is even more jam packed with details and content than the last! Instead of continuing to follow Rokk and Reep again, TMK make the conscious choice to keep filling the readers in on the current status of the other Legionnaires. I can’t say Ultra Boy has ever been one of my favorite Legionnaires so the decision to make him one of the central characters during this run struck me as odd when I first read these issues. I’ve always viewed the characters as a discount Superboy replacement, but TMK actually make me interested in the character here for the first time. During the Levitz years, Jo was always a generic, good guy jock kind of character, lacking any real traits beyond his relationship with Phantom Girl. However, placing Jo back on his home world of Rimbor gives TMK the chance to make him into more of a “rouge with a heart of gold” which gives him interesting archetype to embody. You probably notice that my summary frequently jumps around between different events and characters every sentence. This reflects the approach taken to storytelling during this run. It’s a style very reminiscent of what Levitz would do during his run that preceded this one, constantly shifting between different characters in each issue to give different subplots a chance to develop while also fleshing out the main storyline of the issue. In contrast, TMK don’t seem to have a main plot (at least for now) that they want to get the readers invested in. Instead, these past two issues are dedicated to slowly drawing back the curtain on the current state of the universe and how things have changed since Levitz left the book. It’s a very ambitious approach to writing that I think works well in the context of the story they’re trying to tell, since it makes the reader constantly want to know what happened to subplot A before it ends on a cliffhanger so they can get to subplot B. My favorite scene in this issue is when Jo emerges from the wreckage to find the shaving kit. The look on his face conveys all the emotion the story had been building towards: 
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jul 3, 2015 12:54:30 GMT -5
Hey, what's not to like? It made great use of the test subjects from the Invasion! miniseries, which explained why so many humanoid alien species had conspicuously useful super powers! As for Valor replacing Superboy as the inspiration for the Legion, I agree that it came from the left field... Might as well have used Superman as an inspiration (why would teenagers have to be inspired by another teenager?) and replaced Superboy by Kent Shakespeare in the continuity. I mean, he even looks the part. (You really didn't like the Dominator stuff? I thought it was damn cool, myself!) I think the problem with the TMK approach of tying disparate bits of continuity together is that you slowly begin making the universe much smaller. That is an excellent point and one that every fan turned pro would be well advised to heed when tempted to use continuity in some important fashion. I thought the Dune prequels by Brian Herbert, while decent SF action novels (nowhere near the awesomeness of Frank Herbert's originals, but still decent) suffered tremendously by trying to link each and every character with each other. As you say, that makes the universe much smaller and far less interesting. In the case of the Dominators test subjects, though, I thought it just made perfect sense in that they were already there. So the DC universe had on the one hand a bunch of characters with super powers and nowehere to go, and on the other hand a bunch of planets peopled by super powered humans with no origin. It seemed quite parsimonious to link the two! (Regarding the Invasion! series itself, I only read the first issue. I enjoyed its giant size and its celebration of the 1950s "invasion from space" films, but was dismayed by how totally wrong Bill Mantlo was about how evolution works. Mind you, I have the same criticism for DnA, whose work I otherwise love). I look forward to reading that!!! |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2015 13:36:17 GMT -5
it took me many years to appreciate the 5YL Legion.
Oh, i bought them and read them as they came out, but I didn't really "like" it. . and what it really came down to was I just didn't enjoy the change to Giffen's art.
it was too busy, and far, far too muddy (the coloring was just awful as far as I was concerned -- something that Giffen never really corrected thruout his next several projects either) -- even in that pic you have in your first post, the colors are muddy, and nobody really stands out from the background.
oh, and I DESPISED that awful panel grid.
Going back and reading it years later, I've grown to appreciate it, as I said, but I still think it would have been much better with a different artist, or at the very least, a different colorist.
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