|
Post by Hoosier X on Jul 3, 2015 14:18:20 GMT -5
I think the method worked on a case by case basis. Sometimes the simplicity of the image worked in Giffen's favor and was powerful (i.e. Mon-El vs the Time Trapper). Other times, the lack of complex motion makes the actions seen ambiguous and difficult for the reader to understand (i.e. Blok vs Roxxas). I think the 9-panel pages helped the reader see a lot. And I think 5YL 1-12 was Giffen's best art period over all. If you don't like things happening off-page don't ever watch an Ozu film... Geez Louise! Ozu is so awesome! Two hours go by. Sometimes two and a half hours go by. Nothing happens. Yet you are mesmerized.
My favorite is Good Morning.
|
|
|
Post by paulie on Jul 3, 2015 16:45:00 GMT -5
I think the 9-panel pages helped the reader see a lot. And I think 5YL 1-12 was Giffen's best art period over all. If you don't like things happening off-page don't ever watch an Ozu film... Geez Louise! Ozu is so awesome! Two hours go by. Sometimes two and a half hours go by. Nothing happens. Yet you are mesmerized.
My favorite is Good Morning.
Agreed. Agreed.
|
|
|
Post by Action Ace on Jul 3, 2015 21:11:37 GMT -5
My last issue of Legion as a child was Annual #1 in 1982. My last comic with the Legion in it was New Adventures of Superboy in late 1983. I went from there to Legion of Super-Heroes #19 in 1991. I was getting back into comics in college and the Legion had featured in the "Time After Time" story in the Superman comics. The Legion is my third favorite superhero team after the JLA and JSA, so I thought this would be a good point to jump back into it. I was about to drop it when Batch SW-6 showed up. I kept reading for that team and got a wonderful Legionnaires series out of it for a brief time. I've read every Legion story DC has published and I would rate this era as the worst. It was over a year before I got the earlier issues to get the full picture, but it didn't change my mind. It was a long tedious slog from start to finish. I was thrilled when the Legion got rebooted after Zero Hour. SUPERBOY: I do think he's essential to the Legion and I still think of the team as part of Superman's supporting cast. KEITH GIFFEN: I don't know what happened to his art. I loved it in 1982, wondered what was going on in 1983 and disliked it in 1991. It would get even worse later in the 1990s reaching Liefeldian depths. I did like the 9 panel grid though. Now all that said...good reviews Pharozonk! I hope you have a successful thread. LLL
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2015 21:41:56 GMT -5
KEITH GIFFEN: I don't know what happened to his art. I loved it in 1982, wondered what was going on in 1983 and disliked it in 1991. It would get even worse later in the 1990s reaching Liefeldian depths. I did like the 9 panel grid though. I got awful tired of every character having a big black BLOB for a face (heck, it's right there on the cover of issue #1)
|
|
|
Post by Pharozonk on Jul 3, 2015 22:30:11 GMT -5
KEITH GIFFEN: I don't know what happened to his art. I loved it in 1982, wondered what was going on in 1983 and disliked it in 1991. It would get even worse later in the 1990s reaching Liefeldian depths. I did like the 9 panel grid though. I got awful tired of every character having a big black BLOB for a face (heck, it's right there on the cover of issue #1) Giffen's style for the run, while expressive, often made every male character look the same. When I first read the run, I had trouble distinguishing Rokk and Jo a lot of the time!
|
|
|
Post by Paste Pot Paul on Jul 3, 2015 23:00:18 GMT -5
I discovered the Legion through B+W reprints in the late 70s, the stories by Jim Sherman etc, and was lucky enough to find actual DC issues about the start of the Great Darkness Saga. Levitz and Giffen are by far my favourite creative team on the book, and the 80s were a fantastic time to be a Legion fan.
5YL though was a mixed bag though. I remember that I loved it at the time, but was always disappointed whenever Giffen wasnt involved. The fill in artists were never good enough. In saying this I still have to admit that I had problems distinguishing characters at times, the generic uniforms were a lot of the problem, and Keiths style was such that all males or females were effectively clones.
I reread these early this year (or late last) and by the end of the run I was glad to see the end of it. If only it werent followed by 10 years or so, of totally uninspired tedium. Personally I see the problem as being the whole Dystopian setting. While not against the idea as a temporary story device, as an ongoing it just became too overwhelming, there was no good side to it. The Legion I loved had plenty of drama, sure, but it also had incredible interplay between the team, unique personalities, and I feel this is where 5YL fails. There just isnt any joy or hope to keep coming back for.
On the good side I liked what he did with Blok (yes the death of...), Rokk, Dawny, Vi, and Sun Boy. Ultra Boy has always been a fave, so the focus on him was cool, and I loved how they played Vi and Ayla. Just wish you could make out identities more easily.
|
|
|
Post by Pharozonk on Jul 3, 2015 23:41:54 GMT -5
Legion of Super-heroes (1989) #3Writer: Keith Giffen, Tom Bierbaum, Mary Bierbaum Pencils: Keith Giffen Ink: Al Gordon Color: Tom McGraw Editor: Mark Waid Grade: B Summary: The issue opens with a page of different images taken by a probe of different Legionnaires. Though none of the Legionnaires are show in the images themselves, their location as well as current activity are shown. We then cut to the castle of the evil mage Mordru who has captured longtime Legion ally and secret Green Lantern Rond Vidar and is torturing him by letting some creature eat him alive, though it is merely an illusion that will last for eternity. One of Mordru’s servants informs him that the Legionnaires are regrouping once again. On the planet Winath, Garth Ranzz aka Lightning Lad and his wife Imra Ardeen aka Saturn Girl are now running a successful produce shipping business with Garth’s brother, the once villainous Mekt Ranzz aka Lightning Lord. Though they are better off than most, the galactic economy is still hurting their business. Meanwhile, Salu meets up with Ayla and she takes Salu into a secluded grove on Winath to surprise her, revealing the statues to all the dead Legionnaires that were bought by Garth from Earthgov. On Rimbor, Rokk and Reep are looking for Jo when a large, furry creature beckons for them to follow it. Though they are wary, they decide to go with it. They find Jo and are happy to be reunited after so long. Back on Earth, the Dominators are noticing all this Legionnaire activity and are worried that it could pose a threat to their plans of galactic domination. They have hired an agent to deal with the problem and have a tape of his work to see if he’s worth the price. The tape reveals that the agent is the man dressed in Victorian clothing from the end of the last issue. He reveals himself to be the space pirate Roxxas, who murdered the entire Trommite race except for Element Lad. In an attempt to establish his brutality, he murders the Legionnaire Blok, who was hibernating(?) on a barren planet. Shavaugn gets her hands on the same tape and his heartbroken to see what has happened to Blok. Back at Mordru’s castle, it’s revealed that one of Mordru’s servants had been eavesdropping on the Legionnaire’s conversation and their plan to get back Mysa Nal aka White Witch from Mordru. Mordru tells one of his servants, Vyrkos, that they should prepare for their arrival. Back on Winath, Garth finds that he has received a mysterious package in the mail. In it, he discovers the broken body of Blok that Roxxas has sadistically delivered to him. He tells one of his workers to prepare a transport to Shanghalla to bury Blok. The issue ends with a mysterious voice speaking as we see the grave of Lar Gand aka Mon-El. The tombstone explodes and a figure rises and walks off. Thoughts: These summaries are getting more and more tiring to write, but I’m not complaining. TMK’s relentless assault of information and plotting is so refreshing to read in an era where an issue like this would be told in six issues, with at least one of those likely being a tie-in to some company wide event comic. It’s nice to check back in with Rokk and Reep again, as their return ties the first two issues together and begins a more cohesive focus for the book. The banter between the trio is beautifully written and its small moments of camaraderie that give these early issues their spark, contrasting with the dark setting the heroes find themselves in. The return of Mordru as a villain is an odd choice, especially since Paul Levitz had the Legionnaires remove Mordru’s evil soul and essentially make him a good guy during his run on the Baxter series. I do have to wonder if this is a deliberate regression on the part of the writers or whether they were simply ignorant of that story. Either way, Mordru is used effectively here. In contrast to his usual self, his much more calm and composed, giving as a villain who’s both calculating and cunning, relying on his true power only when needed. His torture of Rond is very disturbing, especially since Rond’s mouth is gone, preventing him from screaming. The one failing of this issue is the perhaps the most obvious: the death of Blok. Putting aside my own general distaste for killing off characters, Blok’s death here just doesn’t work, neither on an emotional nor storytelling level. It’s no secret that the Bierbaums were staunch enthusiasts of the pre-Adventure Comics #350 Legion roster, so newer characters like Blok, Wildfire, Dawnstar, Tellus,etc. were often written out of the book or completely changed past the point of recognition under their pen. Their use of Blok seems to be more of a case of the former. Even during the Levitz years, Blok never really had much of a personality and had a tendency to fade into the background. He also wasn’t popular among readers, a fate that unfortunately befell many of the non-humanoid Legionnaires. I’m guessing those reasons gave TMK the backing to write this story, since they felt they wouldn’t face any reader backlash for killing off a character simply to prop up their villain. The problem is that Roxxas as a villain has no connection to Blok that would make their confrontation have any meaning beyond a superficial fight sequence. Tom Bierbaum has said that Shvaugn Erin was originally supposed to die at Roxxas’ hands, which would have made much more sense considering their shared connection to Element Lad. However, Shvaugn was spared and Blok was given a pointless death that served no real purpose other than a cheap stake raising moment. The fact that Roxxas sends the body parts to Garth undermines some of the tension and just becomes silly, like something out of an 80’s slasher movie. The fight between Roxxas and Blok also brings to light my earlier point about how the nine panel grid can be both a boon and hindrance to conveying action sequences. Like I said to Paradox, this fight is an instance where things are too vague for the reader to understand. How is Roxxas hurting Blok? Is he simply touching him and causing him to explode? Is he carrying bombs? What's going on here?
|
|
|
Post by fanboystranger on Jul 4, 2015 1:24:57 GMT -5
Hey, what's not to like? It made great use of the test subjects from the Invasion! miniseries, which explained why so many humanoid alien species had conspicuously useful super powers! As for Valor replacing Superboy as the inspiration for the Legion, I agree that it came from the left field... Might as well have used Superman as an inspiration (why would teenagers have to be inspired by another teenager?) and replaced Superboy by Kent Shakespeare in the continuity. I mean, he even looks the part. (You really didn't like the Dominator stuff? I thought it was damn cool, myself!) I think the problem with the TMK approach of tying disparate bits of continuity together is that you slowly begin making the universe much smaller. Everything is now tied together and lacks a unique sense of spontaneity that events in real life do. This can often lead to the overused "destiny and fate" motif that can often turn an original idea into a cliche fairly quickly. (see the recent Amazing Spider-man movies for proof of that). I think that's both the strength and weakness of their run. The strength is very present in the first year when you're putting it together with the characters. The weakness is that it's all been foreshadowed and fits together too neatly.
That's my problem with the Legion as a whole over the past twenty years. Other than some Abnett and Lanning work, it's far too predictable. The Legion was always about imagination, and that's what the reboots miss. The future should never be tired... it should be wild. I love the ambition of the 5YG Legion, but after Giffen left, so did the imagination. That's been the problem since, despite some great creators on the book. (Love me some Roger Stern, but not his Legion.)
|
|
|
Post by fanboystranger on Jul 4, 2015 1:31:22 GMT -5
KEITH GIFFEN: I don't know what happened to his art. I loved it in 1982, wondered what was going on in 1983 and disliked it in 1991. It would get even worse later in the 1990s reaching Liefeldian depths. I did like the 9 panel grid though. Well, we all know know what happened. Giffen discovered Jose Munoz, one of the true grand masters of comics. He figured most N Americans wouldn't know Munoz' art, and he was right as the amount of translated Munoz material in English is woefully small. Dean Mullaney through IDW is trying to rectify that. Hopefully all of us here will buy those efforts.
I love Keith's art in this period. More for the storytelling, but also just for attempting a mainstream N American superhero comic in this vein. I wish more comics had this ambition.
This is the only regular superhero franchise that attempted at an American Flagg/Watchmen level of storytelling. There's plenty of shitty comics that took the easy bits (dark theme, dark characters), but this is one of the few that tried to achieve that level of layered storytelling. It's not always great, but it's always trying to be a truly great comic from a craft standpoint.
I think we almost need to rate the 5YG run on two scales:
1) As entertainment.
2) As an expression of what comics could (and should, for my money) be.
|
|
|
Post by Pharozonk on Jul 4, 2015 12:13:36 GMT -5
2) As an expression of what comics could (and should, for my money) be.
I don't know if the 5YL style is something that should be used for long term storytelling. It's an instance of letting a story override previous continuity or characterization to get a particular narrative across. For the most part it succeeds, but it did have instances of character assassination that just don't jive with past characterizations (i.e Dirk selling out but never getting a chance at redemption, Garth secretly being Proty). It's why letting writers get free reign isn't always the best idea as a book can quickly become commercial fan-fiction. I'm not saying that we need someone like Dan DiDio overseeing everything, but getting a Jim Shooter or Julius Schwartz in there isn't a bad idea.
|
|
|
Post by fanboystranger on Jul 4, 2015 12:49:23 GMT -5
2) As an expression of what comics could (and should, for my money) be.
I don't know if the 5YL style is something that should be used for long term storytelling. It's an instance of letting a story override previous continuity or characterization to get a particular narrative across. For the most part it succeeds, but it did have instances of character assassination that just don't jive with past characterizations (i.e Dirk selling out but never getting a chance at redemption, Garth secretly being Proty). It's why letting writers get free reign isn't always the best idea as a book can quickly become commercial fan-fiction. I'm not saying that we need someone like Dan DiDio overseeing everything, but getting a Jim Shooter or Julius Schwartz in there isn't a bad idea. I didn't feel it was commercial fan-fiction when Giffen was in charge, but it often did when the Biernbaums were left to their own devices, especially in the Annuals.
There is a reason why the eventual reboot was necessary, though. I think the idea that you can just reboot everything when the book isn't working has killed a lot of interest in the franchise. It make it seem like there's no consequences. Still, I'd rather see this kind of ambition than a book that just goes through the motions every month, even if that means having to start from scratch every now and then.
|
|
|
Post by Pharozonk on Jul 4, 2015 13:03:43 GMT -5
I didn't feel it was commercial fan-fiction when Giffen was in charge, but it often did when the Biernbaums were left to their own devices, especially in the Annuals. I'll definitely agree that the book was stronger when Giffen was overseeing the Bierbaums, but I don't think that he's free from blame from some of the out of left field decisions made during his tenure (i.e Shvaugn is a guy, Mon-El is actually Eltro Gand).
|
|
|
Post by paulie on Jul 4, 2015 15:59:25 GMT -5
The fight between Roxxas and Blok also brings to light my earlier point about how the nine panel grid can be both a boon and hindrance to conveying action sequences. Like I said to Paradox, this fight is an instance where things are too vague for the reader to understand. How is Roxxas hurting Blok? Is he simply touching him and causing him to explode? Is he carrying bombs? What's going on here? I think it is pretty A-Ok. Roxxas is exploding bombs on Blok. I'm a big fan of the 9-panel grid and I like how it is used here. It leaves a lot to our imagination and furthers the story along.
|
|
|
Post by coke & comics on Jul 4, 2015 21:26:55 GMT -5
I have read very little Legion anything in my life. I've read the Great Darkness Saga and their first appearance and... I think that's it. So forgive an ignorant question. I see this series came out around the same time as L.E.G.I.O.N. '89.
Is there any connection between these series?
|
|
|
Post by Pharozonk on Jul 4, 2015 21:44:08 GMT -5
I have read very little Legion anything in my life. I've read the Great Darkness Saga and their first appearance and... I think that's it. So forgive an ignorant question. I see this series came out around the same time as L.E.G.I.O.N. '89. Is there any connection between these series? Some of the characters in L.E.G.I.O.N are ancestors of Legionnaires (Vril Drox) and Phase (Phantom Girl) was revealed in LoSH annual #1 to have been thrown back to the 20th century. For the most part though, L.E.G.I.O.N was it's own thing in the vein of Guardians of the Galaxy or Omega Men.
|
|