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Post by Action Ace on Jul 4, 2015 22:41:46 GMT -5
KEITH GIFFEN: I don't know what happened to his art. I loved it in 1982, wondered what was going on in 1983 and disliked it in 1991. It would get even worse later in the 1990s reaching Liefeldian depths. I did like the 9 panel grid though. Well, we all know know what happened. Giffen discovered Jose Munoz, one of the true grand masters of comics. He figured most N Americans wouldn't know Munoz' art, and he was right as the amount of translated Munoz material in English is woefully small. Dean Mullaney through IDW is trying to rectify that. Hopefully all of us here will buy those efforts.
I love Keith's art in this period. More for the storytelling, but also just for attempting a mainstream N American superhero comic in this vein. I wish more comics had this ambition.
This is the only regular superhero franchise that attempted at an American Flagg/Watchmen level of storytelling. There's plenty of shitty comics that took the easy bits (dark theme, dark characters), but this is one of the few that tried to achieve that level of layered storytelling. It's not always great, but it's always trying to be a truly great comic from a craft standpoint.
I think we almost need to rate the 5YG run on two scales:
1) As entertainment.
2) As an expression of what comics could (and should, for my money) be.
Keith's art was fine as it was. He and Romita Jr. both need their art to regress thirty five years. I do give the series credit for being ambitious and complex. I'm sure had I been reading comics when #1 came out, I would have liked the series more. Coming in at issue #19 was a bad idea. However, entertainment is of far greater import to me than "advancing the medium" and this series failed that test. And because there aren't enough parsecs of disagreement between us... My second least favorite era was the DnA (and O) one. The early parts of the two reboots are my favorite Legion eras in the last three decades. |
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Post by fanboystranger on Jul 4, 2015 23:59:47 GMT -5
Well, we all know know what happened. Giffen discovered Jose Munoz, one of the true grand masters of comics. He figured most N Americans wouldn't know Munoz' art, and he was right as the amount of translated Munoz material in English is woefully small. Dean Mullaney through IDW is trying to rectify that. Hopefully all of us here will buy those efforts.
I love Keith's art in this period. More for the storytelling, but also just for attempting a mainstream N American superhero comic in this vein. I wish more comics had this ambition.
This is the only regular superhero franchise that attempted at an American Flagg/Watchmen level of storytelling. There's plenty of shitty comics that took the easy bits (dark theme, dark characters), but this is one of the few that tried to achieve that level of layered storytelling. It's not always great, but it's always trying to be a truly great comic from a craft standpoint.
I think we almost need to rate the 5YG run on two scales:
1) As entertainment.
2) As an expression of what comics could (and should, for my money) be.
Keith's art was fine as it was. He and Romita Jr. both need their art to regress thirty five years. I do give the series credit for being ambitious and complex. I'm sure had I been reading comics when #1 came out, I would have liked the series more. Coming in at issue #19 was a bad idea. However, entertainment is of far greater import to me than "advancing the medium" and this series failed that test. And because there aren't enough parsecs of disagreement between us... My second least favorite era was the DnA (and O) one. The early parts of the two reboots are my favorite Legion eras in the last three decades. That's it: pistols at dawn!!!
No, I will agree that the first few issues after the reboots have generally been great. The problem is that all of these books then settled into familiar patterns. I loved the first few Waid issues after Zero Hour where the Legion is established, but it fell off so quickly. Likewise, the first few issues of the "Threeboot" were very interesting (and I did think the idea of the Legion as a social/cultural movement was inspired), but once Waid established what was different and what was the same, the novelty was gone. That's kinda the problem with reboots in general-- there's this renewed interest in books because they claim to be trying something different, but once the dust settles, most of them are just the same old thing with a new coat of paint.
On a tangential note, did you read Superman 41? I felt it was the best work I've seen from JR Jr in years. I've never been a fan of the JRJr/Klaus Janson pairing-- I like both separately-- but I felt it really worked here. Maybe it's Dean White's colors that were the missing ingredient.
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Post by Pharozonk on Jul 5, 2015 0:35:12 GMT -5
Legion of Super-heroes (1989) #4 Writer: Keith Giffen, Tom Bierbaum, Mary Bierbaum Pencils: Keith Giffen Ink: Al Gordon Color: Tom McGraw Editor: Mark Waid Grade: A- Summary: This issue opens on the planet Talok VIII, home of Tasmia Mallor aka Shadow Lass. Another Talokian, Grev, informs her that the council of Talok has declared that he is to replace Tasmia as the planetary protector. She understands and agrees its for the best. While she is in her home, she is surprised to find her long dead lover Lar Gand aka Mon-El Waiting for her there. Meanwhile, on the planet Colu, Querl Dox aka Brainiac 5 is working with some cells infected with the Validus plague in his lab when Tasmia and Lar arrive. Lar reveals that the Legion’s greatest enemy, the Time Trapper, is within his body and brought him back to life to use him as an invulnerable vessel to host his soul. Horrified at the prospect that Querl might remove him from Lar’s body, the Time Travel snatches Lar from Colu and teleports him to his dimension. As the two begin the battle, the Time Trapper reveals the horrible truth behind the Legion: they were all his creation. Hundreds of years ago, the Time Trapper foresaw a future in which Mordru were rise to power and rule the universe for a millennium. In order to prevent this, the Time Trapper created Superboy to inspire teens in the future to found the Legion. For years, the plan worked and the Legion kept Mordru in check. However, once they defeated Darkseid during the Great Darkness Saga, he realized that they were becoming too powerful even for him. Even though they thought they had killed him (LoSH v3 #50), the Time Trapper survived. Ultimately, if Lar kills the Time Trapper, his reality will completely cease to exist. With a look of determination on his face, Lar realizes that he has no other option but to end his reality for the greater good of the future. As he deals the final blow, his universe begins to fade to white as it disappears. Thoughts: In contrast to the last three issues, this one is a lot more linear. We don’t jump around to too many characters or subplots this time, even if the location of the story keeps changing. In this regard, it’s a nice change of pace that gives the reader a chance to catch their breath. Ironically, this issue is even crazier than the last! The return of Mon-El and the Time Trapper is definitely a bold move. The “final” battle against the Time Trapper during the Levitz years is one of my personal favorite Legion stories so the fact that its brilliant ending is undone here is a bit disappointing. Resurrecting Mon-El, on the other hand, is a good idea in my book since I felt his original death was pretty cheap and lazily tacked on to the Magic Wars arc without actually advancing the story in any way. The retcon of the Time Trapper being behind the creation of the Legion both works and it doesn’t. Like the changes brought about by the Pocket Universe story, the continued undermining of Superman’s importance to the Legion doesn’t sit well with me. Superman is the DCU’s supreme hero and role model for all other heroes who followed him. The Legion simply coming together on their own can work, but I felt that their bond to Superman made them more interesting as a team. On the other hand, TMK are able to make do with the massive restrictions the Superman editors placed on them. If the last vestiges of Superman’s role in the Legion were going to be removed, I’m glad to see it go out in a blaze of glory. I could simply state how Mon-El’s final words is one of the greatest moments in comics for me, but I think the page speaks for itself:  Awesome.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jul 5, 2015 7:34:21 GMT -5
I got awful tired of every character having a big black BLOB for a face  (heck, it's right there on the cover of issue #1) Giffen's style for the run, while expressive, often made every male character look the same. When I first read the run, I had trouble distinguishing Rokk and Jo a lot of the time!  Jo had a distinctly receding hairline, despite his ponytail. That was another first for this ambitious comic: a young hero balding! Too bad later artists corrected that. |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jul 5, 2015 7:47:15 GMT -5
2) As an expression of what comics could (and should, for my money) be.
I don't know if the 5YL style is something that should be used for long term storytelling. It's an instance of letting a story override previous continuity or characterization to get a particular narrative across. For the most part it succeeds, but it did have instances of character assassination that just don't jive with past characterizations (i.e Dirk selling out but never getting a chance at redemption, Garth secretly being Proty). It's why letting writers get free reign isn't always the best idea as a book can quickly become commercial fan-fiction. I'm not saying that we need someone like Dan DiDio overseeing everything, but getting a Jim Shooter or Julius Schwartz in there isn't a bad idea. Regarding Dirk, and even though I didn't like losing the character, I thought he selling-out agreed with his past characterization as something of an egotist. His story, as we saw in the flashback that preceded his death, showed that he wasn't truly a bad guy, just one who had dug himself deeper and deeper in an inextricable situation because he enjoyed privilege. How many well-meaning people walked down that road in the real world? As for Garth and Proty, the retcon might have made some sense, in that Garth did not actually come back to life after all... but the whole plot twist smacked of fan fiction; it was too much of a retcon. We are supposed to believe that Proty/Garth could hide his secret from his wife who's a telepath For more than a decade? That his change of personality went unnoticed by everyone? (On that note, I tive credit to the Bierbaums who didn't write Garth in Legionnaires the same way they wrote him in LSH. But the other characters really should have noticed that something was wrong with their comrade!) I fully agree with you on the occasional need for a strong editorial hand. Sometimes editors overdo it, but their moderating influence rarely lead to a comic being irretrievably damaged. At worst, an editor's dampening influence will lead to bland stories, something that can be remedied later on. |
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Post by Pharozonk on Jul 5, 2015 7:59:48 GMT -5
Regarding Dirk, and even though I didn't like losing the character, I thought he selling-out agreed with his past characterization as something of an egotist. His story, as we saw in the flashback that preceded his death, showed that he wasn't truly a bad guy, just one who had dug himself deeper and deeper in an inextricable situation because he enjoyed privilege. How many well-meaning people walked down that road in the real world? My problem with the story was in the resolution. Dirk, for all his vices, was a good and noble person at the end of the day. Dirk becoming a naive puppet of the government does fit his characterization and I imagine he wouldn't be aware of the bad things that he's indirectly responsible for while enjoying the privilege his position gave him. However, what should logically happen by the end of his character arc is that he should realize what he's doing, say f**k you to the government, and rejoin the Legion. I just don't feel there was any redemption for the character, which was a slap in the faces to his fans. |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jul 5, 2015 8:48:06 GMT -5
Regarding Dirk, and even though I didn't like losing the character, I thought he selling-out agreed with his past characterization as something of an egotist. His story, as we saw in the flashback that preceded his death, showed that he wasn't truly a bad guy, just one who had dug himself deeper and deeper in an inextricable situation because he enjoyed privilege. How many well-meaning people walked down that road in the real world? My problem with the story was in the resolution. Dirk, for all his vices, was a good and noble person at the end of the day. Dirk becoming a naive puppet of the government does fit his characterization and I imagine he wouldn't be aware of the bad things that he's indirectly responsible for while enjoying the privilege his position gave him. However, what should logically happen by the end of his character arc is that he should realize what he's doing, say f**k you to the government, and rejoin the Legion. I just don't feel there was any redemption for the character, which was a slap in the faces to his fans. Yes, I can see how a Sun Boy fan would think the man didn't get a chance to redeem himself. But that wasn't Dirk's fault: we saw him decide that enough was enough, and put on his old (ill-fitting) uniform again; it's not his fault that he was immediately caught in the blast of a Dominator doomsday device (I forget what it was exactly, in all honesty; I just remember it turned Dirk into a living chunk of charred flesh). He was on the verge of going back to the side of the angels, and it's all the more dramatic that the carpet was pulled from under his feet by a cruel fate. One thing that made me uncomfortable about Dirk's death is that it seemed to herald a period where Legionnaires would be sacrificed for shock value, being suddenly made expendable by the appearance of the SW6 batch. I loved the SW6 batch, as long as it was understood they were clones of the originals. The ambiguity about their nature was one of the points I disliked in the latter days of the 5YL run. No way could they be considered suitable replacement for the "real" Legionnaires, no matter what Reep suddenly seemed to think. |
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Post by Pharozonk on Jul 5, 2015 17:12:39 GMT -5
I can see what you're saying. I think I would have been fine with it if it wasn't a character that had been around for 30 years prior to this story. If this was an original character created for this role, I could roll with it. Sure, it would have lacked the same punch, but it wouldn't have made me mad either.  |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jul 5, 2015 17:31:56 GMT -5
A policy I'd like the big two to enforce would be "don't kill a character you did not create. You wanna kill someone, create someone".
Yes, it means that none of the old heroes could ever die... but it's not as if it sticks when it happens anyway.
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Post by Action Ace on Jul 5, 2015 18:43:32 GMT -5
Keith's art was fine as it was. He and Romita Jr. both need their art to regress thirty five years. I do give the series credit for being ambitious and complex. I'm sure had I been reading comics when #1 came out, I would have liked the series more. Coming in at issue #19 was a bad idea. However, entertainment is of far greater import to me than "advancing the medium" and this series failed that test. And because there aren't enough parsecs of disagreement between us... My second least favorite era was the DnA (and O) one. The early parts of the two reboots are my favorite Legion eras in the last three decades. That's it: pistols at dawn!!!
No, I will agree that the first few issues after the reboots have generally been great. The problem is that all of these books then settled into familiar patterns. I loved the first few Waid issues after Zero Hour where the Legion is established, but it fell off so quickly. Likewise, the first few issues of the "Threeboot" were very interesting (and I did think the idea of the Legion as a social/cultural movement was inspired), but once Waid established what was different and what was the same, the novelty was gone. That's kinda the problem with reboots in general-- there's this renewed interest in books because they claim to be trying something different, but once the dust settles, most of them are just the same old thing with a new coat of paint.
On a tangential note, did you read Superman 41? I felt it was the best work I've seen from JR Jr in years. I've never been a fan of the JRJr/Klaus Janson pairing-- I like both separately-- but I felt it really worked here. Maybe it's Dean White's colors that were the missing ingredient.
If I had a nickel for every time I was challenged to a duel on a message board, I could have Greece bailed out in under an hour.  |
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Post by Pharozonk on Jul 5, 2015 18:47:42 GMT -5
If I had a nickel for every time I was challenged to a duel on a message board, I could have Greece bailed out in under an hour. I could have done it in 10 minutes. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Jul 12, 2015 9:22:27 GMT -5
I plan on reading this thread 5 years from now.
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Post by Paste Pot Paul on Jul 14, 2015 5:19:02 GMT -5
Im a huge fan of the style Giffen had developed by his first run on Legion, but still enjoyed it at this stage I do like that his more recent style harks back to his Kirby influences, see his pre52 Legion or even Omac and Forever People Nu52 work.
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Post by terence1965 on Jul 14, 2015 9:10:40 GMT -5
5YL is probably my favourite Legion era, just trumping The Great Darkness Saga. But....I wish it had ended with #38 (it even had The End prominently featured on the cover, so that was a clue) because when Giffen left, so did any sense of direction. I continued on until Legion On the Run, and the subsequent reboot, but the spark had gone (apart from a couple of nice Annuals). Yup, my Legion pretty much ended with the Earth blowing up, and it never recovered.
Looking forward to reading this review of the 5YL Legion.
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Post by terence1965 on Jul 14, 2015 9:46:32 GMT -5
On Sun Boy's fate; I think Giffen had the same hate on for Dirk that he had for Karate Kid, hence Dirk's sudden death in the the two issues Giffen returned to the Legion for the Nu52.
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(heck, it's right there on the cover of issue #1)
For more than a decade? That his change of personality went unnoticed by everyone? (On that note, I tive credit to the Bierbaums who didn't write Garth in Legionnaires the same way they wrote him in LSH. But the other characters really should have noticed that something was wrong with their comrade!)
