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Post by hondobrode on Jun 22, 2014 18:14:56 GMT -5
Even though Adam Hughes did some beautiful, if somewhat out of character IMO, covers, I agree that Wonder Woman has never been sexually appealing, where as She-Hulk or Black Canary have been.
I love Golden Age Wonder Woman and yes, think she's extremely sexual, but not in an overbearing way.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jun 22, 2014 21:07:46 GMT -5
If you're saying that you have to have exposed skin to connote sexualization, then we must agree to disagree. Not exactly, no, but compare these two images and tell me which one depicts the main character in a more clearly sexual, more clearly violent, and more clearly submissive situation: In this instance, the torn clothes and exposed skin certainly exacerbate the sexiness, the violence, and the submissiveness.
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Post by gothos on Jun 23, 2014 15:51:46 GMT -5
To answer your question I don't think the torn clothing automatically says "sexy" to every buyer. It might be different if her clothes were torn to spotlight or even suggest "areas of eros," but who cares about the back? The torn clothes in this case work to spotlight her peril from immediate death, as the unknown shooter draws a bead on the target painted on her back. While it's true that guys can work up sexual interest in almost anything, there's less argument for this being overly sexual than the earlier seen cover where the missile being headed right for Diana's groinal region.
As for helplessness, yeah, Diana's in a somewhat worse position because she's manacled. But keep in mind Batman and Robin aren't having a picnic there; surrounded on all sides by big cats presumably obedient to Catwoman, they don't have a hell of a lot more freedom to escape getting lashed-- which in some circles, is considered sexier than being shot.
I'll admit that the cover artist for WW-- Giordano?-- has produced what is closer to the idea of "good girl art" than Jack Burnley or whoever did the Bats cover.
Now how about my point that the traditional depiction of the male hero as a square-jawed muscular swain is meant to sexualize him, not to just, as some have had it, to "idealize" him? Whether real women are uniformly drawn to muscular swains is immaterial here; traditional handsomeness here is a narrative device that nearly everyone in the comics biz uses to connote attractiveness.
A lot of time, when some fans claim that female characters are being "sexualized" while the male ones are "idealized," they aren't really taking into account the sexual characteristics of the male characters. What these fans are really saying is that the male ones aren't being made "helpless" by the male gaze, and that the males are supposedly allowed to be stable and uncompromised while females are diminished. Obviously, I think that's an over-generalization.
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Crimebuster
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Post by Crimebuster on Jun 23, 2014 16:54:40 GMT -5
For me, Wonder Woman #196 is maybe the most disturbing of all the Wonder Woman bondage covers. It just has a level of sadism the others don't. There's an interior ad by Giordano (I think at the end of #198) that has a more disturbingly rapey vibe, but #196 just is unsettling for me.
I don't mind bondage covers, but they can be pretty tough to pull off without going too far one way or the other. There are a lot of Golden Age bondage covers (not Diana specifically) that go too far into sadism and outright misogyny for me to appreciate them. But if done well, they can certainly be appealing.
As for the broader question, I'm in the camp of people who don't really think of Wonder Woman as a "sexy" character. She's a character that can be sexy when she wants, on her own terms, but she's not designed to be sexy like a lot of female comic book characters. I think her sexiest moment is the very ambiguous "ending" to her long flirtation with Keith Griggs in the Mishkin run. She invites him up to her apartment one evening to discuss their mutual attraction and... we never find out what happens next. But it reads to me as a very empowering scene of Diana as a sexual person in control of her personal life. A very nice breath of fresh air from the silly pining after the milquetoast Steve Trevor from days gone by.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jun 23, 2014 22:11:52 GMT -5
As for the broader question, I'm in the camp of people who don't really think of Wonder Woman as a "sexy" character. She's a character that can be sexy when she wants, on her own terms, but she's not designed to be sexy like a lot of female comic book characters. I think her sexiest moment is the very ambiguous "ending" to her long flirtation with Keith Griggs in the Mishkin run. She invites him up to her apartment one evening to discuss their mutual attraction and... we never find out what happens next. But it reads to me as a very empowering scene of Diana as a sexual person in control of her personal life. A very nice breath of fresh air from the silly pining after the milquetoast Steve Trevor from days gone by. I concur with all of this. As a symbol of feminine strength, I have no problem with Diana being sexual when she wants to be, on her own terms, and without it upstaging her other qualities.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jun 23, 2014 22:17:33 GMT -5
Superman began his life as a rogue vigilante bully, but we don't see him kidnapping mayors in the middle of the night anymore. But here's the thing -- as part of the DC trinity, DC has now spent the past four decades trying to convince us that Wonder Woman is a role model for girls and women, a powerful and righteous being. To focus on her sexiest moments, especially since most of them place her in a submissive role violently and against her will, is thus disturbing. Even if I started a thread about Superman's sexiest moments, we wouldn't find ourselves talking about him practically busting out of his revealing G-string while Lois Lane attempts to sodomize him with a missile. Superman was WAY more interesting when he was bullying Mayors and killing gangsters in the protection racket. *end thread derailment mode*
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jun 23, 2014 22:22:39 GMT -5
]Superman was WAY more interesting when he was bullying Mayors and killing gangsters in the protection racket. *end thread derailment mode* Totally agreed, but the problem was that his impatience with bureaucracy and willingness to arrive at a quick solution made him impractical as an ongoing comic character. Early Superman ended a war in a single 15 page segment. He'd have all the world's problems solved by his second year of publication. Where would you go from there, especially while WW2 was raging outside of the comic book world?
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Post by dupersuper on Jun 24, 2014 20:40:55 GMT -5
Lynda Carter has done a nude scene or 2...just sayin'...
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Post by dupersuper on Jun 24, 2014 21:13:11 GMT -5
Why don't we ask these questions about Superman and Batman? Why not.. Superman: Making a porno with Big Barda That was so not sexy...
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Post by berkley on Jun 24, 2014 22:13:46 GMT -5
Off-topic, but that WW 196 is a really badly drawn cover. Can anyone's head twist 180 degrees around like that? The whole thing looks extremely awkward and totally un-sexy to me, like a hastily drawn sketch that somehow made it to the published cover stage with no polishing.
WW 205, OTOH, is a very attractive cover, simple, but nicely-drawn. While still in keeping with the bondage theme, I think it's light enough that it doesn't jar. You know WW is gong to escape, most likely through her own efforts rather than being rescued (is this accurate? I haven't ever read the issue), and though one can't deny that there's more than a hint of the damsel in distress, I assume that there was a reversal of that idea in the story itself.
Checking the GCD gallery, My own first memories of Wonder Woman are WW 176 & 177. They must have made an impression, because I think I remember the stories and some of the panels pretty well, even though I haven't seen either issue ever since, which would be over 40 years ago.
From what I recall, the bondage theme was definitely present in 176, though of course I wouldn't have known anything about all that at the age of 6. But I retain mental images of WW being held by the arms by the male villains, struggling in vain to escape their grasp, etc, etc, until she turns the tables on them later.
I think it's undeniable that in superhero comics the female characters are more sexualized than the male - though it's equally undeniable that the latter are also sexualized, although to a significantly lesser degree, IMO. I'm about as straight as you can get, but there's obviously an element of homo-eroticism and perhaps sadism to a genre that's largely concerned with muscle-men in colourful skin-tight uniforms who spend most of their time physically fighting one another.
But the female characters are sexualized in a more direct manner: their uniforms often show more naked skin - which is why male characters like Robin or the Sub-Mariner stand out, in their different ways - and the body language and facial expressions often contrast to those of the male characters, even when they're in similar situations or predicaments. There are of course many counter-examples, but I think anyone familiar with American superhero comics will be able to confirm this to themselves from their own impressions and memories.
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Post by gothos on Jun 25, 2014 12:23:45 GMT -5
Berk said:
I wouldn't dispute this if the majority of male characters were really wearing clothes that obscured their bodies. But as others before me have observed, the dominant leotard really doesn't look like clothing; it's dominantly drawn to look like an extra layer of skin. That's why I don't think Batman is less sexualized than Wonder Woman purely because WW shows more skin. For all the costume obscures, you might as well be seeing Bat's pecs and glutes painted grey and blue.
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Post by gothos on Jun 25, 2014 12:33:20 GMT -5
Berk said:
I don't see the need of the frequent "homo-eroticism" slam at superheroes. If the current audience stands accused of constantly wanting to see sexy women in various states of undress, what kind of logic is supposed to explain that the same audience also derives homo-erotic pleasure from watching big musclemen?
I guess you can go with some sort of "polymorphous perversity" to explain all, but it doesn't track for me.
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Post by crazyoldhermit on Jun 25, 2014 13:41:33 GMT -5
It might have something to do with Wonder Woman starting her life as a quasi-bondage fetish comic. Does Superman have any sexy moments before the Modern Age? Batman always had the tantalizing relationship with Catwoman, but Superman's love-life was pretty tame until Post-Crisis from what I've read. Superman began his life as a rogue vigilante bully, but we don't see him kidnapping mayors in the middle of the night anymore. The New 52 relaunch of Action Comics had the same characterization. I don't see any more problem with bondage queen Wonder Woman than I do with liberal warrior Superman or murderous detective Batman. There is something appealing about the classic characterizations, even if they are no longer mainstream. I don't like the idea that every single thing has to appeal equally to every single demographic. Superheroes don't have to be role models all of the time.
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Post by Nowhere Man on Jun 25, 2014 13:54:13 GMT -5
One could argue that a character like Marvel's Conan was even more visually sexualized than the females in his own title. That's a rarity.
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Post by DE Sinclair on Jun 25, 2014 16:07:12 GMT -5
To answer your question I don't think the torn clothing automatically says "sexy" to every buyer. It might be different if her clothes were torn to spotlight or even suggest "areas of eros," but who cares about the back? The torn clothes in this case work to spotlight her peril from immediate death, as the unknown shooter draws a bead on the target painted on her back. While it's true that guys can work up sexual interest in almost anything, there's less argument for this being overly sexual than the earlier seen cover where the missile being headed right for Diana's groinal region. I find this argument pretty hard to buy. A woman with that much clothing torn off automatically feels "rapey". If the goal was to "spotlight her peril" they could have illustrated it just as well with a target painted on her intact clothes. Ripping them off her was an obvious attempt at sexualizing it. As to "who cares about the back", I'll submit Exhibit B (for backless): Attachment Deleted
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