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Post by gothos on Jun 25, 2014 17:07:42 GMT -5
Superman began his life as a rogue vigilante bully, but we don't see him kidnapping mayors in the middle of the night anymore. But here's the thing -- as part of the DC trinity, DC has now spent the past four decades trying to convince us that Wonder Woman is a role model for girls and women, a powerful and righteous being. To focus on her sexiest moments, especially since most of them place her in a submissive role violently and against her will, is thus disturbing. Even if I started a thread about Superman's sexiest moments, we wouldn't find ourselves talking about him practically busting out of his revealing G-string while Lois Lane attempts to sodomize him with a missile. Superman was WAY more interesting when he was bullying Mayors and killing gangsters in the protection racket. *end thread derailment mode* So no one else liked him best in his "Playboy of Steel" phase of the Silver Age? |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jun 26, 2014 9:10:23 GMT -5
One could argue that a character like Marvel's Conan was even more visually sexualized than the females in his own title. That's a rarity. Well the source material did a pretty effective job of sexualizing both. |
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Post by BigPapaJoe on Jul 18, 2014 13:29:38 GMT -5
As for the broader question, I'm in the camp of people who don't really think of Wonder Woman as a "sexy" character. She's a character that can be sexy when she wants, on her own terms, but she's not designed to be sexy like a lot of female comic book characters. I think her sexiest moment is the very ambiguous "ending" to her long flirtation with Keith Griggs in the Mishkin run. She invites him up to her apartment one evening to discuss their mutual attraction and... we never find out what happens next. But it reads to me as a very empowering scene of Diana as a sexual person in control of her personal life. A very nice breath of fresh air from the silly pining after the milquetoast Steve Trevor from days gone by. I concur with all of this. As a symbol of feminine strength, I have no problem with Diana being sexual when she wants to be, on her own terms, and without it upstaging her other qualities. Agreed. I feel the same way. Diana always came across as just someone who would be cool to hang out with. She just happens to be an attractive woman. She doesn't flaunt or act upon her beauty in a provocative way like Catwoman does for instance. Diana to me would be the kind of person that you'd want to maybe marry and start a family with even. That is what I always took from her persona. I'd feel the same about characters like Storm, Jean Grey, and Sue Storm. |
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Post by tokkori1919 on Jul 18, 2014 18:00:45 GMT -5
Please. Sexual objectification is not exclusive to wonder woman (or just women in comics for that matter). Male characters are objectified and degraded just as much, sometimes even at the hands of women:
It's not really about appealing to male audiences and assuming they all have a thing for seeing women in bondage, it's just about putting characters in peril, which is a tried and true method of storytelling. The greater the adversity, the more the reader is going to sympathize with them, and appreciate them all the more when they overcome that adversity. Sure, the early Wonder Woman comics feature a lot of bondage (William Marston probably was a bondage fetishist, but he was also very progressive when it came to women's rights), but she always broke free of her bonds and saves the day by the last panel. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jul 18, 2014 18:03:16 GMT -5
Welcome to the community, tokkori1919  |
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Post by tokkori1919 on Jul 18, 2014 18:05:34 GMT -5
Welcome to the community, tokkori1919 thanks, also it had my gender as female on my profile, I changed it to male. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jul 18, 2014 18:09:32 GMT -5
Please. Sexual objectification is not exclusive to wonder woman (or just women in comics for that matter). Male characters are objectified and degraded just as much, sometimes even at the hands of women:
It's not really about appealing to male audiences and assuming they all have a thing for seeing women in bondage, it's just about putting characters in peril, which is a tried and true method of storytelling. The greater the adversity, the more the reader is going to sympathize with them, and appreciate them all the more when they overcome that adversity. Sure, the early Wonder Woman comics feature a lot of bondage (William Marston probably was a bondage fetishist, but he was also very progressive when it came to women's rights), but she always broke free of her bonds and saves the day by the last panel. I would point out that, in each of your examples, it's still the woman wearing the skimpier, more sexualized costume. The role reversal is fun, but there's no doubt who the real sexual object is. |
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Post by tokkori1919 on Jul 18, 2014 18:18:43 GMT -5
Please. Sexual objectification is not exclusive to wonder woman (or just women in comics for that matter). Male characters are objectified and degraded just as much, sometimes even at the hands of women:
It's not really about appealing to male audiences and assuming they all have a thing for seeing women in bondage, it's just about putting characters in peril, which is a tried and true method of storytelling. The greater the adversity, the more the reader is going to sympathize with them, and appreciate them all the more when they overcome that adversity. Sure, the early Wonder Woman comics feature a lot of bondage (William Marston probably was a bondage fetishist, but he was also very progressive when it came to women's rights), but she always broke free of her bonds and saves the day by the last panel. I would point out that, in each of your examples, it's still the woman wearing the skimpier, more sexualized costume. The role reversal is fun, but there's no doubt who the real sexual object is. Yes but to be fair, Superman's physique could also be seen as an ideal few men in real life could achieve. Also, if you were to take any of those three examples and switched the genders, you can bet there would be widespread outcry of "this degrades women!", but alas, when it's men being the ones degraded, nobody seems to mind because obviously "he must be enjoying it".
Basically this tvtropes article explains the concept
tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DoubleStandardAbuseFemaleOnMale
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Post by BigPapaJoe on Jul 18, 2014 18:30:14 GMT -5
^ Yes it's that classic double standard. I'd say female-on-male violence is accepted more so than male-on-female violence in reality.
That being said, I still couldn't hit a woman. Everything I grew up with, was taught, and was exposed to tells me it's wrong. I remember a guy in high school blatantly saying he has no issue with hitting a woman if it comes down to it. I remember that gave me a chuckled for some reason. Just didn't expect him to say that.
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Jul 18, 2014 18:33:00 GMT -5
Please. Sexual objectification is not exclusive to wonder woman (or just women in comics for that matter). Male characters are objectified and degraded just as much, sometimes even at the hands of women:
It's not really about appealing to male audiences and assuming they all have a thing for seeing women in bondage, it's just about putting characters in peril, which is a tried and true method of storytelling. The greater the adversity, the more the reader is going to sympathize with them, and appreciate them all the more when they overcome that adversity. Sure, the early Wonder Woman comics feature a lot of bondage (William Marston probably was a bondage fetishist, but he was also very progressive when it came to women's rights), but she always broke free of her bonds and saves the day by the last panel. Hot damn!!! And no I don't like cinnamon schnapps. |
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Post by Jesse on Jul 18, 2014 20:39:13 GMT -5
Male characters are objectified and degraded just as much, sometimes even at the hands of women This statement is a false equivalency. It does happen to male characters but by no means is it equal. There are plenty of examples in the Kelly Thompson article She Has No Head! – Revisiting ‘No, It’s Not Equal’ |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jul 18, 2014 20:52:12 GMT -5
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Post by Phil Maurice on Jul 18, 2014 21:08:33 GMT -5
Male characters are objectified and degraded just as much, sometimes even at the hands of women . Have to agree here. The mechanisms that produce and consume comics are still overwhelmingly male-oriented. The good news is that the disparity is slowly, gradually tilting toward equilibrium as more and more female fans take an interest.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jul 18, 2014 21:10:34 GMT -5
;The good news is that the disparity is slowly, gradually tilting toward equilibrium as more and more female fans take an interest. . And, in the spirit of keeping things nicer around here, let's not call someone's opinion "patently false," especially when they are brand new to our community. Let the evidence prove that. |
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Post by Jesse on Jul 18, 2014 21:21:02 GMT -5
And, in the spirit of keeping things nicer around here, let's not call someone's opinion "patently false," especially when they are brand new to our community. Let the evidence prove that. Fair enough but I don't think I was replying to an opinion rather a statement which is indeed erroneous. Perhaps I should have worded it differently. Calling it a false equivalency instead sounds more tactful. |
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