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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2022 11:38:23 GMT -5
I stand corrected. Anyway, I was explaining my view of this and why I stick with Showcase #4. It is all arbitrary, especially with DC, and I am not saying others are wrong for picking a different starting point. We are not talking about the assassination of Arch Duke Ferdninand. but you are evaluating and accepting or dismissing facts based on how they fit your accepted theory instead of evaluating the theory based on how it fits the facts. Why does the theory take primacy over the evidence it should be based on? -M
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Post by kirby101 on Aug 21, 2022 11:46:45 GMT -5
Because Showcase was were they were trying to start a new superhero line and later the retro fitted the older stories into it. They didn't even have the 2 Earth concepts until Flash 123. So I am looking at the publishing side of things. If some one wants to look at the in story side and pick MM or Superboy or Superman, I have no qualms with that.
There are monsters from the Atlas monster books that showed up in later MU comics. But FF is still the start of the Marvel Silver Age.
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Post by Cei-U! on Aug 21, 2022 12:17:16 GMT -5
But FF is still the start of the Marvel Silver Age. Only if you ignore the Lee-Kirby westerns like Rawhide Kid and Two-Gun Kid. I consider Kid Colt, Outlaw #79 (July 1958), which retells KC's origin for the first time since 1947 and was also the first issue released after the so-called "Atlas Implosion." as the start of the Silver Age for Martin Goodman's comics.
This is why I f'ing hate the entire Golden/Silver/Bronze Age paradfigm. It misrepresents the actual history.
Cei-U! I summon the pet bugaboo!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2022 13:00:06 GMT -5
I think the "ages" concept gives us valuable common terminology, ways to quickly pivot to periods of fairly commonly agreed to generalizations on timeframes with the understanding there are many transitionary events and points of personal variance on the significance (or even appropriate "classification" of those).
That said, I tend to agree with Showcase #4 and FF #1 as having stood the test of time as solid markers for most general conversation, which to me simply means a good majority of people can quickly digest and connect with the reasoning of both. Not that the counter-examples don't make for good discussion and deeper understanding of historical context.
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Post by codystarbuck on Aug 21, 2022 13:08:48 GMT -5
I think the "ages" concept gives us valuable common terminology, ways to quickly pivot to periods of fairly commonly agreed to generalizations on timeframes with the understanding there are many transitionary events and points of personal variance on the significance (or even appropriate "classification" of those). That said, I tend to agree with Showcase #4 and FF #1 as having stood the test of time as solid markers for most general conversation, which to me simply means a good majority of people can quickly digest and connect with the reasoning of both. Not that the counter-examples don't make for good discussion and deeper understanding of historical context. I find that decades work better.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2022 13:24:55 GMT -5
I think the "ages" concept gives us valuable common terminology, ways to quickly pivot to periods of fairly commonly agreed to generalizations on timeframes with the understanding there are many transitionary events and points of personal variance on the significance (or even appropriate "classification" of those). That said, I tend to agree with Showcase #4 and FF #1 as having stood the test of time as solid markers for most general conversation, which to me simply means a good majority of people can quickly digest and connect with the reasoning of both. Not that the counter-examples don't make for good discussion and deeper understanding of historical context. I find that decades work better. I could kind of go with that for the 60's at least for Marvel (though DC I think needs some late 50's added back in), but the 70's would not work for me. The mid-70's to mid-80's in particular for the Bronze Age really have too much commonality. I would lean towards the latter half of the 80's having more in common with the 90's for DC, for Marvel a little fuzzier, though I also think the 90's as a whole works fairly well on its own. In my collection software I just call the second half of the 80's "Copper" and then call the 90's "90's", so I guess personally I'm a bit hybrid now that I think about it.
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Post by kirby101 on Aug 21, 2022 15:27:04 GMT -5
But FF is still the start of the Marvel Silver Age. Only if you ignore the Lee-Kirby westerns like Rawhide Kid and Two-Gun Kid. I consider Kid Colt, Outlaw #79 (July 1958), which retells KC's origin for the first time since 1947 and was also the first issue released after the so-called "Atlas Implosion." as the start of the Silver Age for Martin Goodman's comics.
This is why I f'ing hate the entire Golden/Silver/Bronze Age paradfigm. It misrepresents the actual history.
Cei-U! I summon the pet bugaboo!
Sure, if you want. You could also go with Kirby's return to Marvel. But the Ages are usually a Super hero thing (well, Silver and Golden) so I'll stick with FF #1
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Post by Icctrombone on Aug 21, 2022 16:12:27 GMT -5
My problem with the designations is that they call the 90's the modern age.
So from 1990 to 2022 it's still modern ?
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Post by commond on Aug 21, 2022 16:42:46 GMT -5
My problem with the designations is that they call the 90's the modern age. So from 1990 to 2022 it's still modern ? This is the part where they gave up naming things, and the reason why decades works better. Personally, I'm fine with Golden Age and Silver Age because I grew up with collectors calling them that, but even Bronze Age doesn't stick with me. They're just 70s comics! They don't have the perceived value of Golden and Silver Age comics in my eyes.
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Post by codystarbuck on Aug 21, 2022 18:26:37 GMT -5
To me, Golden Age defines the 40s well; but the 50s become problematic, just as Silver Age defines the 60s well; but, it encompasses half of the 50s. Bronze Age started out as the 70s (or 1969 and the 70s, depending on the definer); but there is a definite break between what was going on in the 70s and the 80s. At the time, the term Modern Age was being bandied about for the 80s, with the Bronze Age designation ending somewhere between 1980 and 1985.
This is why I prefer to discuss according to decades. It's not a perfect system as there is always an evolution to pop culture and there are periods of flux, until the new form fully emerges. It's also why I tend not to give much stock to generational designations. I was born in 1966, which is considered to be at the beginning of Generation X. However, I have vastly different life experiences than those born in 1976, even though they are also part of Generation X. I didn't identify with those people, as they were a decade younger and hadn't experienced any part of life during the Vietnam War and Watergate. I had more in common with the Baby Boomers; but, only really those born in the 60s, like my older brother. Older Boomers experienced the 50s, which was a vastly different decade than the 60s. Similar problems abound in comics, with its generational designations.
The comics of the 30s and 40s have many differences, starting with the wartime setting. The 30s tend to reflect newspaper strips more, while the 40s are a period where comic books have developed their own language. You have the superhero explosion in the 40s, even though it begins in the late 30s. By the end of the 40s, though, the superheroes were petering out. The 50s sees changes, with crime comics, more horror material, westerns and war comics, as well as romances and humor titles. Some of that exists in the 40s, but they evolved substantially in the 50s. Superheroes, in much of the 50s, are not dominant, apart from the Trinity. Their return is as much an experiment, in the wake of the Kefauver Committee and Wertham, leading to the Code. Horror and crime are all but outright outlawed, leaving war, western, romance, superheroes and humor. War western and romance can't get too adult, but superheroes are about wish fulfillment and stage a comeback, as they are less problematic. By the 60s, the superhero is dominant again and the other genres begin to wane, with some exceptions (humor becomes more the realm of Harvey and Archie, while DC and Marvel maintain their better selling genre titles, until they slowly disappear, by the 70s). The 70s sees a loosening of the Code and more experimentation, by the first generation of fans-turned-pro (more or less, though you have the young guys of the 40s, like Kubert and Jules Feiffer). Horror makes a comeback, thanks to loosening restrictions, to compete with the non-Code warren books. Declining Newsstand distribution leads to the Direct Market, which fuels the 80s and the rise of the independent publishers and self-published creators. The 90s sees the market retract and many of those independent voices find alternatives. Distribution shakes down into a monopoly and DC and Marvel emerge dominant, again.
At all of these stages, there are periods of evolution and the mergence of a new status quo, before change starts to develop gain and the cycle repeats. Same thing happens in other pop culture media.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2022 19:10:42 GMT -5
I use my own designations rather than traditional Gold/Silver/Bronze, but it's unique to Marvel. To give credit where credit is due, this is strongly influences by the essays in the back matter of All the Marvels, and author Dennis Wolk's attempt to create his own definitions for the phases Marvel went through. I disagreed with his final choices, but I did like his methodology and starting point of ignoring the traditional Gold/Silver/Bronze labels. I have not given much thought as to how I would break DC done or comics as a whole, but this is how I divvy up the eras/phases of Marvel.
Antediluvian Age (The Timely/Atlas Era 1939-1961) "everything pre-FF"
Phase I: Foundation (1961-1968) "Established all the main core characters of the MU, aka The Split book era" (roughly FF #1-end of split books and start of new titles w/those characters)
Phase II: Expansion (1968-1980) "sees a rapid expansion of titles, genres, characters, formats, creators (away from Stan/Steve/Jack at the core) and the move into licensed books" (roughly '68 with new titles-Shooter becoming EIC)
Phase III: Commercialization (1980-1998) "the rise to prominence of the direct market, event minis series, multi-title crossovers, multi-title character franchises, gimmick covers, Heroes Reborn, and the focus on sales not story" (roughly Shooter-bankruptcy)
Phase IV: Post Bankruptcy Revitalization (1998-2012) "era of experimentation and hype, Heroes Return, Marvel Knights, the Ultimate line and the launch of a successful Marvel presence in movies" (roughly post-bankruptcy/Jemas-Quesada ascension-sale to Disney/launch of Marvel Now)
Phase V: Marvel is Now Disney MCU (2012-present) "The sale of Marvel to Disney, the dominance of the MCU and the new publishing initiatives beginning with Marvel Now" (roughly sale to Disney-present including tenures of Alonso & Cebulski as EIC)
I am sure at some point Phase V will end and Phase VI will begin, but I am not sure what the demarcation point would be, it's something that will be recognized in hindsight, not as its happening.
-M
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Post by wildfire2099 on Aug 21, 2022 19:57:57 GMT -5
I'm pretty happy with the traditional Gold and Silver age designations... I'd don't love Bronze age.. I consider that the beginning of the modern era... so I think of the 70s and 80s as 'classic comics'... much like the 60s and 70s is 'classic rock'. The 'Dark Age' starts around 1986 (DKR? Watchmen? Somewhere around there). Then is the 'Image Era'.. which goes from the launch of Image until Bendis' Avengers. I don't really have a good name for that.... the event era? The reboot era? But we are still in it.
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
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Post by Confessor on Aug 22, 2022 5:02:01 GMT -5
To me, the whole Golden/Silver/Bronze/Copper/Modern Age thing is just a useful shorthand to quickly reference a general time period of U.S. superhero comics. It doesn't hold up to a lot of scrutiny, not least because there is plenty of disagreement among collectors and fans about where some of these "Ages" start or finish. But the terms are useful in a very general way.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2022 5:43:24 GMT -5
For me
Golden - up to 1955 Silver - 1956-1969 Bronze - 1970-1980
I see some extending Bronze to the mid 80s now....
I don't split hairs. If I get anything pre 1980 in nice shape I'm keeping it.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2022 6:27:15 GMT -5
To me, the whole Golden/Silver/Bronze/Copper/Modern Age thing is just a useful shorthand to quickly reference a general time period of U.S. superhero comics. It doesn't hold up to a lot of scrutiny, not least because there is plenty of disagreement among collectors and fans about where some of these "Ages" start or finish. But the terms are useful in a very general way. Same for me. If I think about it too hard, I start equating it with gold, silver and bronze in the Olympics.
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