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Post by Icctrombone on Jul 26, 2023 12:32:42 GMT -5
You don’t reckon with the fact that the doctor could have a great time with Starfox. I don’t know if you heard, but women love sex too.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 26, 2023 12:33:19 GMT -5
In regards to the idea of men making the first move, I can add personal anecdotes. I am by nature a very shy person, more introvert than extrovert. I have always been shy with women. When I was a little kid, before puberty, girls seemed to just want to be my friend, even "girlfriend." Probably because it was all innocent and we hadn't really developed the quirks and anxieties that make us who we are, as adults. By the time puberty came, the shyness became a bigger deal, for me, as i was extremely awkward in trying to let a girl know I liked her. I couldn't say it and couldn't show it, so I often ended up joking around so I could justify keeping them at arms length. That carried into adulthood, which is why I could have been a technical consultant on The Forty Year-Old Virgin (though I beat Steve Carrell by ten years). My late wife and I met via an online dating site, after I had gone through a bit of a transformative period, losing weight and letting go of a lot of baggage. We clicked pretty quickly; but, thoughout our 15 years together, she lamented that I did not initiate things, only responded to her, including sex. I never felt comfortable initiating such things, in part because of the blowback that started during the 1970s, with thw Women's Movement. I supported the ideas of equality of the sexes and that woman should not have to accept male desires, if they weren't receptive; but, one of the pitfalls of that is becoming too passive and not expressing my own attraction or needs to even a loving partner. Barb used to joke about my quirks, in the good times. In the bad times, she felt I didn't give her enough affection. My parents weren't physically demonstrative and my father was an introvert, though a school teacher who had to interact with people. My mother wasn't exactly an extrovert and had to work at it, but was more natural at it than my father. They were my example, coupled with fiction, literary and cinematic.
I can see why women of today rail against attitudes of the past and why some things accepted before are denounced today and often agree. However, some are so knee-jerk in their reactions that it doesn't allow for nuances and the ambiguities, because too much emotion is involved. I can see why many young men are so petrified of saying or doing the wrong thing; I was, and things weren't quite as reactionary then.
One of the problems of these types of issues is that so much emotion is tied up in the discussion that you can't have a reasonable debate, without it escalating. I think that is one of the biggest problems in modern society, that emotion is tied up into too many important things and various people and groups use this to push an agenda, right or wrong, and use it as a distraction from real problems. The "Culture Wars" are as much a distraction from major issues, like climate change, hunger, mental health, economic disparity, depleting resources and the like. In the absence of concrete ideas to help these issues, politicians turn to emotional issues to divert attention. The media uses such things to elicit response from the public and sell more products, increase ratings to charge more for advertising, etc.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 26, 2023 12:49:16 GMT -5
That is all possible, yes, I grant that. Are you willing to grant that it is also possible that the lady actually thinks what she says and stays because she wants to stay? Why assume the worst? So why does he have an attitude that can be interpreted as predatory at all? Let's examine for a moment what the worst and best outcomes are for those involved: Starfox treats the doctor like a show animal and his property, just like in the scene. 1) Best outcome for Starfox: hook up with the doctor. 2) Worst outcome for Starfox: he doesn't hook up with the doctor, so his personal situation remains exactly as before 1) best outcome for the doctor: she remains indifferent or fascinated by the advances of Starfox 2) Worst outcome for the doctor: she feels violated and treated like an object, but she can't do anything for many reasons Starfox does NOT treat the doctor like a show animal 1) Best outcome for Starfox: hook up with the doctor. 2) Worst outcome for Starfox: he doesn't hook up with the doctor, so his personal situation remains exactly as before 1) Best outcome for the doctor: she remains indifferent or fascinated by the advances of Starfox 2) Worst outcome for the doctor: she remains indifferent or slightly annoyed. The inequality of power between the two is clear and the only one who can lose is always only the doctor. So ethically the best possible behavior for Starfox would have been to not act in a predatory manner. Your assumption is that the fact that Eros has powers, physical and otherwise, that there is a power imbalance between the two, except there is no clear cut implication that Eros is exerting any power over her. The mere existence of power does not preclude its use. By your logic, a male being physically larger and/or stronger than the woman creates a power imbalance and anything he says or does has an advantage, unless they are complete equals in all ways. So, no matter how respectful or courteous he is, no matter how attracted she might be, he has the advantage, so he is in the wrong, even when he doesn't press his advantage. At least, that is the way it is coming across to me. I don't buy that. Power comes from no one source and Eros being super powered doesn't mean the medic has no will of her own and is incapable of deciding for herself whether there is a power imbalance or whether she can accept or decline Eros affection. You say only the doctor can lose, even in the situation where Eros is not a jerk. How does she lose if she rejects Eros? She is as she was before; you are the one asserting that Eros just moves on. Why doesn't the doctor just continue on as before? That seems a rather sexist idea, to me. Take that line of thought to the extreme and you get burkhas, because men cannot be trusted around women. This is not a situation of the boss hitting on an employee, or a teacher infatuated with a student. It is two adults having a conversation and an interaction. You are making inferences but seem to reject the idea that any other inference can be made. The whole point of ambiguity is that every observer makes their own inference. Communication always consists of what one person says and the other hears, plus non-verbal or non-textual cues. There is no one message; there is what the speaker or writer intended to convey and how the listener or observer received. This is why people argue
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Post by Cei-U! on Jul 26, 2023 12:59:59 GMT -5
I blame guest artist John Byrne, not exactly the most enlightened of comics creators. If regular artist Al Milgrom had drawn that scene, he might well have given the two characters, Starfox and the paramedic, entirely different poses and body language.Imagine that Milgrom doesn't have 'fox touch the doc's face. Assuming Stern's dialogue remained the same, would we even be having this discussion?
Cei-U! I summon the different perspective!
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Post by Icctrombone on Jul 26, 2023 13:05:54 GMT -5
I blame guest artist John Byrne, not exactly the most enlightened of comics creators. If regular artist Al Milgrom had drawn that scene, he might well have given the two characters, Starfox and the paramedic, entirely different poses and body language.Imagine that Milgrom doesn't have 'fox touch the doc's face. Assuming Stern's dialogue remained the same, would we even be having this discussion? Cei-U! I summon the different perspective! I have to call my pastor and ask him if hell froze over, this is the first time I heard of someone saying Milgrom could have drawn something better than Byrne.
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Post by MDG on Jul 26, 2023 13:14:04 GMT -5
I blame guest artist John Byrne, not exactly the most enlightened of comics creators. If regular artist Al Milgrom had drawn that scene, he might well have given the two characters, Starfox and the paramedic, entirely different poses and body language.Imagine that Milgrom doesn't have 'fox touch the doc's face. Assuming Stern's dialogue remained the same, would we even be having this discussion? Cei-U! I summon the different perspective! I have to call my pastor and ask him if hell froze over, this is the first time I heard of someone saying Milgrom could have drawn something better than Byrne. Not better--different. But does talk to the importance of the words and images being in sync and that an artist or writer can, purposefully or not, change the meaning intended by the other.
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Post by Prince Hal on Jul 26, 2023 13:30:28 GMT -5
I blame guest artist John Byrne, not exactly the most enlightened of comics creators. If regular artist Al Milgrom had drawn that scene, he might well have given the two characters, Starfox and the paramedic, entirely different poses and body language.Imagine that Milgrom doesn't have 'fox touch the doc's face. Assuming Stern's dialogue remained the same, would we even be having this discussion? Cei-U! I summon the different perspective! I have to call my pastor and ask him if hell froze over, this is the first time I heard of someone saying Milgrom could have drawn something better than Byrne. Thank you for today's best/funniest post. I may let you open for me someday.
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Post by tonebone on Jul 26, 2023 13:58:03 GMT -5
Just to throw some grease on this fire....
It's 2023... are we sure we're saying there are differences between men and women? That's a very 2019 attitude! Problematic.
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Post by tonebone on Jul 26, 2023 13:58:43 GMT -5
I'm assuming I have now been banned. Good night, everyone.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jul 26, 2023 14:06:24 GMT -5
I'm assuming I have now been banned. Good night, everyone. If you can’t be famous, be infamous.
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Jul 26, 2023 14:10:53 GMT -5
Just to throw some grease on this fire.... It's 2023... are we sure we're saying there are differences between men and women? That's a very 2019 attitude! Problematic. Sarcasm, aside, which is spot on, there is. And that's why this discussion even exists. We wouldn't be debating the power mechanics of men and women if we weren't different. And yes, both genders have struggles. But understanding each other's specific gender related struggles will help us coexist with less discord. Sounds like a more comfortable existence than the current one of throwing presumptions at the cultural wall until something sticks.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 26, 2023 15:59:13 GMT -5
Getting back to context, in regards Eros. After Stern reveals the nature of his powers,Eros is forced to use them to stop Maelstrom. In the storyline, he takes Janet to a party he heard about, which is hosted by Sersi, of the Eternals. It just so happens she has been summoned by Domo, to return to Olympia, for a gathering of Eternals, to recreate the uni-Mind. She doesn't want to go and the Domo dispatched Deplhins. This leads to conflict and Eros, Jan and She-Hulk (who was attending the party, but is now with the Fantastic Four) end up captured and brought to Olympia. There, they hear the story of the past of the Eternals and of the schism between Urano and Chronos (inspired by the Greek legend of the birth of the Titans and there gaining dominance). Uranos is defeated and Chronos ends up becoming cosmic dust, spread across the galaxy (but with a sentience that leads to him later creating Drax). The Eternals are left with new heirs to the throne, Zuras and Alars. Zuras becomes ruler and Alars leaves, to prevent conflict and ends up on Titan, where he assumes the name Mentor. He finds a survivor of a previous civilization there, Sui-San. mentor helps rebuild things and they have a family, including Eros and Thanos, while building ISAAC, the world-controlling computer. The Olympian Eternals learn that Eros is son of Alars and invite him to join the Uni-Mind. Maelstrom, a child of Eternal and Deviant, interrupts everything and gains tremendous powers, before being beaten by the Avengers and Eros tries to use his abilities to stop Maelstrom. This moment causes anxiety within Janet.... ...because she was mind-controlled by Moondragon, in the past. Meanwhile, Captain Marvel helps save the day and Eros apologizes for how he behaved towards her, in reaction to her using the name Captain Marvel..... Hercules ends up joining the team and, in a quiet moment, Eros invites janet out for lunch, but she declines. Hercules takes him up on it, as does Wanda. At a restaurant, Eros questions why Janet seems so different towards him and Wanda suggests his powers are the reason.... Later, Eros decides to confront the issue and he has a conversation with Janet..... He makes it quite clear he has only consciously used his powers against those seeking harm and that they do no allow him to control people, only stimulate feelings of pleasure,until they lose the desire to inflict harm on others, because they are satisfied. Through all of this we learn that the Vision has grown neurotic, seeking to exert control over the chaos around him, for security of Wanda and others. With ISAAC's aid, he buils a system that lets him take over the earth's computer systems, boosting his power, in hopes of ending strife and chaos, like the increased hostility towards mutants, like his wife. His intentions are good, but the "Road to Hell" rears its ugly head and the Avengers must stop his actions, but do so via reason. They then get caught up with Skrulls and nubula, who is acting as a mercenary for a faction of the Skrulls, and who has taken control of Sanctuary II, Thanos' starship. At the end of it, Eros leaves the Avengers, along with Firelord, to find Nebula and learn if she is truly Thanos' granddaughter, as she claims, and to stop her in her actions of conquest. In the end, Eros has grown as a hero. He has learned that there is more to it than grand adventure and he has gained friends. meanwhile, Roger Stern makes it very clear that he does not use his abilities on people to make them return his affection, nor can he control their minds. Reducing all of that context down to just the two panel scene of him with the medic eliminates the totality of the story and leads one to infer all kinds of things not intended by Roger Stern. As said, John Byrne's staging adds to these inferences, as his ideas of conveying Eros' attraction may not be in sync with Stern's intent. That is the problem of oversimplification; it is too easy to make mistakes or gain unintended interpretations. As it is, even the most clearly communicated art or drama can find itself having other ideas projected upon it by observers. How many people have looked at a painting and seen something else that others never contemplated? Is a Georgia O'Keefe print of a flower just a flower or a metaphor for female genitalia? While I was in the Navy, I came across some pamphlet that someone brought aboard ship, from some Right Wing religious organization, attacking rock and roll music as evil, using merely song titles. I shook my head at most of it as the usual cultural attack, until I saw on the list Pat Benatar's "Hell is For Children," with the Note, "That is not what I want to teach my children!" I would hope not, as the song is about the "hell" of child abuse. Had they bothered to listen to it, or even read the lyrics, the message would have been clear.... They cry in the dark So you can't see their tears They hide in the light So you can't see their fears Forgive and forget All the while Love and pain become one and the same In the eyes of a wounded child Because hell, hell is for children And you know that their little lives can become such a mess Hell, hell is for children And you shouldn't have to pay for your love With your bones and your flesh It's all so confusing this brutal abusing They blacken your eyes and then apologize Be daddy's good girl, and don't tell mommy a thing Be a good little boy, and you'll get a new toy Tell grandma you fell from the swing Because hell, hell is for children And you know that their little lives can become such a mess Hell, hell is for children And you shouldn't have to pay for your love With your bones and your flesh No, hell is for childrenAll they did was read the title; they ignored the context of the song, which is a condemnation of child abuse, after Pat benatar read a newspaper piece about child abuse and was reduced to tears and anger over such things and expressed it in song, her medium. It is a powerful song and is one she doesn't take lightly..... Context is everything; it is what gives words meaning. It is what gives images meaning. Too often, it is absent from such discussion, sometimes deliberately, to manipulate emotional responses, such as attract voters or sell products or foster a power agenda. Context also factors into interpersonal relationships, but, they are also built around emotion and when people get bombarded with emotional outcries, constantly, their own emotions can become so mixed up it becomes unhealthy. I feel that a lot of that fosters the mental health crisis I see in the world. I am all for correcting the mistakes of the past and creating a world where people have equal opportunity to live and grow and love and am all in on fighting injustices and educating people when they are doing wrong to others; but, any "fight" requires a strategy to obtain the goal and strategy requires thought and care, not just reaction. If you have nothing but reaction, you just end up metaphorically (or physically) punching back and forth, until one or both sides collapses. "Punching" in the right spot or right time, or right combination wil have a better long term effect. Context helps us form such strategies and be successful.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jul 26, 2023 17:27:48 GMT -5
I had stopped reading the Avengers back then, but maybe I shouldn't have! Looks like a lot was happening!
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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 26, 2023 18:46:43 GMT -5
I had stopped reading the Avengers back then, but maybe I shouldn't have! Looks like a lot was happening! Yeah I stopped around the time Captain Marvel joined, as much due to other things, as anything else; but, Roger Stern does a lot with it and gets some good art partners, including the pairing of John Buscema and Tom Palmer. I like Buscema, but some of his later work has a kind of generic drama to it and the line isn't as strong, as you would expect, and Palmer working over his breakdowns kind of fixes that, for me. Stern had about a 5 year run on the title, until he was fired off the book, after disagreements with Mark Gruenwald. he'd also had issues with Danny Fingeroth, on Amazing Spider-Man. After his firing, he went to DC and helped in the revitalization of Superman. I always liked Stern's work, including his Captain America, with John Byrne. He always seemed to know how to tap into the essence of the character and build upon it.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jul 27, 2023 5:51:27 GMT -5
I had stopped reading the Avengers back then, but maybe I shouldn't have! Looks like a lot was happening! Yeah I stopped around the time Captain Marvel joined, as much due to other things, as anything else; but, Roger Stern does a lot with it and gets some good art partners, including the pairing of John Buscema and Tom Palmer. I like Buscema, but some of his later work has a kind of generic drama to it and the line isn't as strong, as you would expect, and Palmer working over his breakdowns kind of fixes that, for me. Stern had about a 5 year run on the title, until he was fired off the book, after disagreements with Mark Gruenwald. he'd also had issues with Danny Fingeroth, on Amazing Spider-Man. After his firing, he went to DC and helped in the revitalization of Superman. I always liked Stern's work, including his Captain America, with John Byrne. He always seemed to know how to tap into the essence of the character and build upon it.He certainly got me interested in the Legion again, after I had written it off following the post-Zero Hour reboot.
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