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Post by thwhtguardian on Jul 31, 2014 18:30:15 GMT -5
I just had a quick look to see how easy it is to download the latest issue of Elektra. obviously i wont include the link but site was really easy to use, huge chunk of new releases, really clean design and 2 mins and no cloud. Someone once asked me if these kinds of 'comic-blog' sites and cbr readers such as Comic Rack are a bad thing for comics. I thought...well if I like what I see on the eComics reader, I can then go buy the original comics. The interesting thing is...if I buy original comics that are resold in the secondary market, publishers don't get a penny from that either...sales proceeds and profits go straight to the seller. So should I feel guilty downloading a book? Yes, if you truly enjoy the comic book medium you really should feel guilty,and while that's largely a discussion for a separate topic I will say the difference is the fact that downloading a pirated book in essence creates a brand new copy of the issue in question, not a sale of a previously owned issue which is a large difference. |
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,874
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Post by shaxper on Jul 31, 2014 18:59:14 GMT -5
Let's please make sure that we are not endorsing the usage of pirated materials on this site.
The last thing we need is this place getting shutdown after all we've done to make this new home a comfortable one.
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ironchimp
Full Member
Simian Overlord
Posts: 456 
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Post by ironchimp on Aug 1, 2014 7:31:25 GMT -5
Apologies shax. I could definitely have worded my own post better.
There is definitely no "reason" to pirate a book. The companies give you a 1/4 of the book for free via a preview, there are a zillion reviews of each book out there or you can just ask here for an opinion. It's never been easier to make an informed choice about buying a book before without the need to pirate it.
I do think it's interesting though that we will all post a youtube video and think nothing of it though, me included, while decrying piracy in other media
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Post by impulse on Aug 1, 2014 10:07:29 GMT -5
I think the smartest move for content owners is to offer a better product than the pirated options. I believe the average consumer is lazy/busy and not terribly interested in working that hard for entertainment. Sure, there will always be some people who will never pay for anything. Forget them. They don't exist, practically speaking. Instead, make a legal service that is clean and easy to navigate, offer the content that people want in high quality, and price it reasonably*. It's really easy for me to turn on the TV, switch to my Roku input, open Amazon and buy the next episode of Game of Thrones. I'm watching in HD within minutes. I don't have to leave my house to go buy anything, and I'm not dealing with the hassles pirates face like viruses, malware, ads, chance of getting fined by ISPs, etc. (I am not in any way advocating piracy as a viable option, just pointing out some of the hassles piracy presents).
In essence, the easier it is to buy and use content legally, the more people are likely to do it, I think. Things like nasty DRM, restricting playback on certain devices, missing key content on services, etc, only make it less likely someone will buy your product. In a way, someone choosing not to buy your product is worse than somebody who would have never bought it downloading a copy. If your interface didn't suck, or if you didn't have arbitrary device restrictions, or if you weren't charging too much for a digital-only copy of a movie someone might have bought it, and that is an actual lost sale.
*I don't know where the sweet spot is on pricing, but I know I don't think it's reasonable to charge the same for a digital-only copy as a physical copy. That might get simpler as the physical market for things declines and lower price digital sales wouldn't cannibalize the profit margins so much. I find the Blu-ray/DVD/digital combo packs to be a reasonable compromise for now if you buy them during release week when the stores have them on sale, but I digress. This could be its own topic entirely.
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Post by Dizzy D on Aug 1, 2014 11:19:32 GMT -5
For Gaming this is pretty much known as the Steam-method. Making sure that your service offers benefits rather than restricting your legimate customers. Gabe Newell has said a lot about this in various media over the years.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2014 12:22:57 GMT -5
Apologies shax. I could definitely have worded my own post better. There is definitely no "reason" to pirate a book. The companies give you a 1/4 of the book for free via a preview, there are a zillion reviews of each book out there or you can just ask here for an opinion. It's never been easier to make an informed choice about buying a book before without the need to pirate it. I do think it's interesting though that we will all post a youtube video and think nothing of it though, me included, while decrying piracy in other media I'd never post a full movie. Those actually get reported. A lot of the music videos are actually posted by either the band or the owner of the music. There is copyright infringement on Youtube, but one report is all it takes to get rid of it. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2014 12:29:23 GMT -5
*I don't know where the sweet spot is on pricing, but I know I don't think it's reasonable to charge the same for a digital-only copy as a physical copy. That might get simpler as the physical market for things declines and lower price digital sales wouldn't cannibalize the profit margins so much. I find the Blu-ray/DVD/digital combo packs to be a reasonable compromise for now if you buy them during release week when the stores have them on sale, but I digress. This could be its own topic entirely. I agree to that completely. I think a dollar per issue is ideal, but if day of release stuff has to be two dollars for a month that's fine. I don't think we should have to wait for a sale for something to be 99 cents though. I think it should be on schedule and not too far behind the release. I'm really not a fan of Comixology though. As the digital market expands I hope we have some better options. I think ultimately what's going to happen is the major publishers jump ship to sell digital media directly, and a few startups competing for what's left. It could be a mess at first, with some trying to lock you into their service with subscription plans, and your files from different sources requiring different apps to work. I think that will end up creating what I'd like to see as a result though, which are files that can be played on multiple devices and multiple apps, downloadable as well as stored in their database. More similar to what iTunes is. It plays on the computer, it plays on my mobile device, it plays on my phone, it plays in my car. I store it on my computer, but Apple keeps track of my purchases and allows me to re-download to the authorized devices (I think that works with music, I know it works with my apps. I haven't updated my iPod in years. I hardly listen to new music and a lot of what I'm interested in isn't on iTunes yet so I have to rip it from a CD I bought off eBay or a record company website). |
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Post by impulse on Aug 1, 2014 13:36:08 GMT -5
For Gaming this is pretty much known as the Steam-method. Making sure that your service offers benefits rather than restricting your legimate customers. Gabe Newell has said a lot about this in various media over the years. Oh, definitely. I have read some of his interviews on the topic, and it no doubt influenced what I wrote. Steam is so convenient and easy. They keep everything updated for you, they validate and fix corrupted files, sync your saves and screenshots, let you connect to other gamers, etc. If you accidentally ruin your game modding you can just wipe it and redownload as many time as you want. You can stream from your beefy PC in the other room to the old weaker one hooked up to your TV in the living room..Oh, and the sales! Not just the twice-anually blowouts. They have regular sales, weekly specials, weekend deals. Steam has absolutely mastered this. If there was something like this for comics that was equally easy to use I would be all over it. I agree to that completely. I think a dollar per issue is ideal, but if day of release stuff has to be two dollars for a month that's fine. I don't think we should have to wait for a sale for something to be 99 cents though. I think it should be on schedule and not too far behind the release. I'm really not a fan of Comixology though. As the digital market expands I hope we have some better options. I think ultimately what's going to happen is the major publishers jump ship to sell digital media directly, and a few startups competing for what's left. It could be a mess at first, with some trying to lock you into their service with subscription plans, and your files from different sources requiring different apps to work. I think that will end up creating what I'd like to see as a result though, which are files that can be played on multiple devices and multiple apps, downloadable as well as stored in their database. More similar to what iTunes is. It plays on the computer, it plays on my mobile device, it plays on my phone, it plays in my car. I store it on my computer, but Apple keeps track of my purchases and allows me to re-download to the authorized devices (I think that works with music, I know it works with my apps. I haven't updated my iPod in years. I hardly listen to new music and a lot of what I'm interested in isn't on iTunes yet so I have to rip it from a CD I bought off eBay or a record company website). Yeah, that would be good. I could see maybe having it on a delay so as not to cannibalize their own sales. Maybe full price the first month or two but the drop it down in subsequent months? Say anywhere from 3-6 months in it hits a buck. Or if they made it de facto standard to include a digital copy with a physical copy they could get best of both worlds. There is no way I'm buying both formats at full price. In fact, the only way I could see maybe paying full price for a digital-only product, be it comics, movies, music, etc, is if they allowed extremely high/full quality unrestricted downloads. Not some crummy compressed version or something that only runs in some proprietary software. Give me non-DRM full-quality in the standard universal format. That again comes down to adding value/convenience/etc. like Steam. Same product with convenient access, etc. I personally have started switching from iTunes to Amazon because I don't like being restricted to certain devices. I also like that Amazon often includes an MP3 version of a purchased CD at no extra cost, it downloads them in unprotected format to any of your devices with the software, etc. While I tend to be iffy on subscription services, if Marvel had something like Netflix for comics with complete access to everything older than, say, six months? I'd be all over it. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2014 13:51:13 GMT -5
I'm thinking of customers who have abandoned physical copies, which is what I'm looking to do. I'm willing to be 30 days behind to pay what I think is a fair digital price, but I don't consider it cannibalizing their sales if they actually priced it accordingly. I think the reason they don't is not because they can't afford to, or because they wouldn't make plenty of money, but because they are protecting the direct market. I think the direct market could protect itself by being a better experience. No need for digital to play at a handicap and stifle real growth within the industry. Digital revenue is multiplying semiannually. Hard copy sales are increasing, but very slowly, and not within the biggest part of the industry (Big two shared universe superhero titles). I suspect if comics were at a lower pricepoint and available with absolute convenience nationwide (and worldwide) we'd see not only current comic readers increase their pull lists (spending the money saved on lower priced comics on more comics instead of other forms of entertainment) but I also think we'd attract a new market of readers. I think digital already has attracted a new market, but not as large as it could be. I think if things were played out right we could be back at the 80's level of units sold, with mainstream titles averaging at 100,000 units and not topping out there. We'd see the smallest of small press titles selling between 6000 and 20,000 units. You ever crack open a goofy quarter bin indie and see in the indicia it had a print run of twenty thousand? It's amazing. I think all that could be reality again. It would come at an expense though. Direct market sales would drop, but since distributing digital is cheaper, I think revenue would not be lost. It would likely increase through volume. A handful of shops would go under, but I believe most of the good ones would remain. Remember, a lot of shops just aren't that great anyway, including every shop within 80 miles of me as well as the online shop I've been using. It may force retailers to step their game up and improve the experience for hardcopy readers and collectors.
I personally am not looking for a digital copy to go with my hard copy. I don't see any sort of value in that at all. If I have the hardcopy I'm not going to bother with the digital copy.
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Post by impulse on Aug 1, 2014 14:18:23 GMT -5
But you could keep your hard copies bagged, boarded and pristine, or you could take your run of The Punisher with you on vacation to read on your phone/tablet. Much easier than bringing a long box on an airplane.  |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2014 14:25:29 GMT -5
While I tend to be iffy on subscription services, if Marvel had something like Netflix for comics with complete access to everything older than, say, six months? I'd be all over it. This is what Marvel Unlimited is. Granted they don't have everything up yet, but they claim to be constantly adding stuff and I never went to read something that wasn't there. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2014 15:31:38 GMT -5
But you could keep your hard copies bagged, boarded and pristine, or you could take your run of The Punisher with you on vacation to read on your phone/tablet. Much easier than bringing a long box on an airplane. It is true that providing a digital code is beneficial to some, but I don't think the majority find value in it, and I certainly don't. I'd rather have one or the other. And print is fine, I love it. The problem is my LCS screwing me out of pull list comics when they get hot, my internet subscription service doing the same, and comics just generally selling out and being difficult to get. Can't sell out of a digital file. I'm just not ready to assign a digital file the same value as a physical product. I don't think I'll ever be ready for that. The cost to manufacture and distribute a physical product will always be more than the cost to send a picture of it over the internet to someone. DCBS will sell a brand new comic at 40% below cover. I would like digital to match that price. In fact, I'd like digital to match the price DCBS paid for that comic to be able to afford to sell it at 40% below cover, but I'd be happy with simply price matching digital. |
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Post by thwhtguardian on Aug 1, 2014 15:38:16 GMT -5
But you could keep your hard copies bagged, boarded and pristine, or you could take your run of The Punisher with you on vacation to read on your phone/tablet. Much easier than bringing a long box on an airplane. It is true that providing a digital code is beneficial to some, but I don't think the majority find value in it, and I certainly don't. I'd rather have one or the other. And print is fine, I love it. The problem is my LCS screwing me out of pull list comics when they get hot, my internet subscription service doing the same, and comics just generally selling out and being difficult to get. Can't sell out of a digital file. I'm just not ready to assign a digital file the same value as a physical product. I don't think I'll ever be ready for that. The cost to manufacture and distribute a physical product will always be more than the cost to send a picture of it over the internet to someone. DCBS will sell a brand new comic at 40% below cover. I would like digital to match that price. In fact, I'd like digital to match the price DCBS paid for that comic to be able to afford to sell it at 40% below cover, but I'd be happy with simply price matching digital. Except it isn't actually a significant amount more to publish a physical copy over a digital one. |
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Post by impulse on Aug 1, 2014 16:24:58 GMT -5
I disagree on the digital copy with physical not being valuable. I think it's tremendously valuable and would be a great way to increase market share and market penetration. I think people feel like they get more value out of buying something physical even though they may want the convenience of the digital, but they may not want to pay so much for a digital, etc. It might be a good way to expose people to the online store too who might otherwise not. While I don't want to pay full cover price for a digital comic, if I get it anyway I am far more likely to look at their digital thing, take advantage of a sale, etc. To each is own, though.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2014 16:29:46 GMT -5
Except it isn't actually a significant amount more to publish a physical copy over a digital one. It is to distribute it. Creating the page costs the same. From that point things get very different. In modern comics production the pages are typically scanned and finished digitally. We'll start from there. In digital the process once the pages are finished and digitized this is the entire process from production to distribution to point of purchase 1. Upload file to Comixology, pay distribution fee. That's it. In print the entire process from production to distribution to point of purchase is this 1. Send file to printer, have copies printed based on preorders and projections, hope you're close to accurate. Pay a ton of money. Hope physical product isn't damaged, but a portion of the run often is. Hope there isn't a recall because the editor didn't notice Wolverine drinking a beer and you don't lose the entire eighty thousand unit print run. Write whatever you do lose up as a loss. 2. Send finished product to distributor, pay shipping and pay distribution fee (sold to distributor for a fraction of cover). Hope nothing is damaged along the way, you're probably going to take the loss for that, because Diamond certainly isn't. 3. Distributor sells to retailers who have to pay for the product, pay for shipping, pay for the labor involved in receiving and processing orders, and pay the overhead of a retail outlet. 4. If demand exceeds preorders and you sell out you have to decide if you'll go to second print or not. If you don't, everyone buying that issue for $50 on eBay is a guaranteed lost sale. If you do you have to factor in the fact that some will buy the $50 one on eBay anyway because they don't like second prints. You're losing sales either way, and paying everything twice. And three times once trades come around (which I think have a lower profit margin anyway). Digital is never out of print. Digital profit margins don't change (unless price points do, but you figure your second and third runs are "free" then any price is a profit. Factor everything after the first month as a bonus). In both of these cases there is a distributor cut. In both cases (I'm assuming) the distributor cut is comparable. In one of these cases there are factors multiplying production costs several times. Materials, labor, overhead, shipping, and multiple merchants with their slice of the pie. I figure the cost of a digital product at the end of it's journey into a consumer's possession is less than half that of print. And again, you can get print day of release for forty percent below cover. It's kind of like would it cost you more to mail a thousand people a letter or send a thousand people an email? You still have to write it either way, but reproducing and distributing it digitally dramatically reduces costs. |
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