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Post by thwhtguardian on Aug 2, 2014 18:48:34 GMT -5
I think what folks are trying to say is that, for Marvel, it does cost that much because that is what the folks who host/distribute it (i.e. Comixology) are charging Marvel to do it. It may potentially be cheaper for Marvel to do it in-house in the long run, but maybe they just don't want to. They are a comic book maker and selling, not a digital e-tail store. That's an entirely different skill set than what they do. They could do all that themselves and take on the extra labor, regulations, skills and costs, or they could just collect their 30% and let someone else deal with it. If someone hacks Comixology and steals a bunch of credit card info? Not Marvel's problem. For whatever reason, that seems to be their preference at the moment. Now, as a consumer, though, that is all completely irrelevant to me. I don't care about the inner workings of either their physical or digital supply chains. In my eyes, a digital-only comic is simply not of equal value to a physical copy. It's just not, and I don't want to pay the same price for both. How to charge less? I don't care, figure it out. Push back on Comixology. Team up with someone else. Do. Not. Care. If you want my money, charge less or add more value. I would maybe see it differently if the files were extremely high quality, high-res, no DRM of any sort, etc, with a Steam-like level of convenience, but as it currently stands? Not worth it. I don't think I'll ever really understand this kind of mentality. Unless you intend to re-sell your book I don't see how the value of a digital copy is any less than a physical one; it still conveys the same story as the physical copy, the art is just as good(sometimes better) than the physical copy, and it's yours to read when ever you want. Those, to me, are the qualities that would determine value and there just doesn't seem to be a noticeable difference. Like I said, if your aim is at re-sale and not just enjoying a good story then I can totally see the point but if you just want a book to read then you've pretty much lost me. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2014 19:13:20 GMT -5
I don't think I'll ever really understand this kind of mentality. Unless you intend to re-sell your book I don't see how the value of a digital copy is any less than a physical one; it still conveys the same story as the physical copy, the art is just as good(sometimes better) than the physical copy, and it's yours to read when ever you want. Those, to me, are the qualities that would determine value and there just doesn't seem to be a noticeable difference. Like I said, if your aim is at re-sale and not just enjoying a good story then I can totally see the point but if you just want a book to read then you've pretty much lost me. So should I pay the same price for a digital comic where I don't actually physically own it? Where I cannot touch it or perhaps even print it? And what if the digital comic is currently locked up in a proprietary format and program? Where I can't move it from one platform to another. Must I buy another? Also, if the publisher suddenly wants to pull the digital comic, they can disable it on my device. Whereas Marvel or DC can't break into my house to recall that hardcopy that they suddenly don't want in the public domain. Sorry...digi comics do have some benefits, I employ them as I see fit...but I always choose owning a physical copy of said book in the end. |
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Post by thwhtguardian on Aug 2, 2014 19:34:15 GMT -5
I've never had an issue taken from me and I haven't heard of any company pulling its issues either. Also it's pretty easy to move from platform to platform, I've never done it but I could view a book on my nook, my laptop, my girlfriend's desktop, my phone, my girlfriend's phone, her laptop and her phone all at the same time with out any issues. As for physically owning it, unless I lose power or where ever the server is loses power I can view it anytime I want so I don't see a huge difference in terms of ownership.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2014 19:43:45 GMT -5
I think the reason why Marvel and DC are currently in this deal with COmixology is because while they stomped their feet at digital, Comixology was creating a smooth running app and marketplace. It didn't cost the big publishers anything to send that file along and let them sell it on a royalty based system. If they failed Marvel doesn't lose anything. If they succeed Marvel gets free money. Now that they see it has succeeded they are already at a disadvantage. They allowed Comixology to get a head start. They have to play catch up now with their own digital distribution services. I don't know if they had digital before Comixology or not, but they definitely didn't gather the following Comixology did, and that's their mistake. At this point, unless they want to continue to pay 70% to their distributor, they're going to have to make their alternative a threat to Comixology. That could allow a renegotiation, and if the negotiations fall through, they can pull their content. A small publisher is small beans, but these larger publishers can make or break a content provider. I don't think Marvel or DC even want to go up against Comixology though. I think they're happy with their subscription based service. A competitor who relies on self published product could eventually rise above the rest and be seen as a viable alternative to Marvel or DC, which would make negotiations a little better for them next time around. Unless they write some genius forever contract like they did with the X-Men for FOX.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2014 20:10:30 GMT -5
As for why go through Itunes or Comixology-never underestimate the laziness of the customer base. People complained when Amazon bought Comixology because the loss of in app purchases meant they had to make a few more clicks to get their books purchased. If they had to navigate to one site to buy Marvel and another to buy DC and another to buy Image and another to buy IDW etc. many would not make the effort, and volume of sales would drop even if margins were higher. Dark Horse (and now Dynamite with them) have their own digital distribution (and reader program) not with Comixology and all I hear on message boards is that it's too inconvenient and "I would buy more Dark Horse digital if they just went through Comixology and I didn't have to go to the Dark Horse site to get it....
If you make each publisher have their own site to sell their product, you are making digital purchasing just as much a destination purchase as having to go to a comic shop, which limits casual purchases and new customers and cuts into growth. One of the critiques of the Amazon purchase and consolidation of where you can buy the books lies along those lines. Being in a centralized space to sell your books makes it more profitable because you move more volume than a dedicated site to one publisher, even if you have to pay a fee for the service. It's the same rationale why rent is higher in a mall than in an out of the way building on the outskirts of town. More traffic means more potential business. If there is only one reason to go to a site, it's easy to skip the site and lower traffic means lower volume of sales. Higher traffic means higher sales. Lots of small press, self-publishers sell their own books on their own sites, but they don't get enough traffic to succeed. To market the site to generate traffic either costs money (which they likely can't afford) or time (which takes time away from creating the books they want to sell). If a big publisher sells their own stuff on a dedicated site, the marketing costs would be as much, if not more that the fees Comixology takes, plus you now have to pay staff to maintain the infrastructure and do all the uploading, and maintenance on the site. Those associated costs and opportunity costs are very likely more than the cost of doing business with Comixology or some other digital distribution site that takes a fee.
-M
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2014 20:22:08 GMT -5
That's true about customer laziness. But it's not just laziness, there is value in making the purchase of a product so incredibly easy that it takes practically no effort. It takes a little money, research, and time developing a marketplace that easy, but it's completely possible. I don't think smaller publishers would have a great job going at it without a digital distributor, but the large publishers can. Many Marvel readers read Marvel almost exclusively. Same with DC. The ones that are willing to try product from another publisher are often exclusive to just the two. The trickle down to Valiant, Image, and Dark Horse is a significant decline. And at a certain point it's almost nothing. I bet half the people reading Kitchen Sink and Oni comics tend to avoid mainstream comics, while I bet the majority of the people buying Image comics read at least a handful of Marvel/DC each month.
So the smaller publishers would find value in a marketplace that lumps them all together, and I bet there's a value for them being lumped in the same marketplace as Marvel and DC. Someone who spends 90% of their comics budget on super heroes but is willing to try anything that looks cool might see their comic in the marketplace.
But as far as Marvel and DC go, I do not see the value. They already have digital solutions. Maybe not BETTER digital solutions, but the fix is to make them better. A little R&D and now you're taking back that 70% cut until you've paid the research off. Then you can go exclusive and undercut the competition. Likely won't lose any actual revenue. The guy with fifty Marvel titles and zero indy titles on his pull list likely isn't going to start spending that money elsewhere. Save him $20 a month and he'll buy $20 more of your product. At the same time, people who say $4 is too much, digital should be cheaper, you're making them happy. People who are okay with current digital prices would be even more okay with cheaper prices, who wouldn't? I think the Audi R8 is a fantastic price, but I can't afford it. Make it 30 grand and I'll buy one tomorrow. So people would likely ditch Comixology and their $3 comics for Marvel and their $2 comics.
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Post by impulse on Aug 2, 2014 23:29:06 GMT -5
I've never had an issue taken from me and I haven't heard of any company pulling its issues either. Also it's pretty easy to move from platform to platform, I've never done it but I could view a book on my nook, my laptop, my girlfriend's desktop, my phone, my girlfriend's phone, her laptop and her phone all at the same time with out any issues. As for physically owning it, unless I lose power or where ever the server is loses power I can view it anytime I want so I don't see a huge difference in terms of ownership. I don't remember the name, but there was a content service that had proprietary software that users had to use to access their stuff after they bought it. Company went under and shut down the servers; users lost their stuff. If I own a physical copy, it is always mine. It doesn't rely on anyone else continuing to give me access to it. One of my major concerns with a lot of current digital "sales" is they really aren't. It's more like a lease, and I don't like not owning what I buy. This is why I could make an exception for truly DRM-free unrestricted content in an open format, though. And yeah, I like to know I could maybe sell the comic if I wanted to.  There a few pretty significant hurdles that I think would prevent Marvel from doing this. First, it's just not a onetime investment of a little R&D. They have to build it and maintain it, make sure it is secure, fast and reliable. It's just not what they do as a business. They are in the business of making comics and letting other people deal with selling them. Operating a digital retail operation is completely out of scope for them, and they would need to hire in that talent or outsource it which costs even more money. It's also really important not to discount first mover advantage. Marvel or DC should have pioneered digital comics before someone else did, but they dragged their feet and now they have to contend with a big entrenched distributor in Comixology just like iTunes and music labels. The time to take it on internally would have been before Comoxilogy got so big. Now, even if Marvel decides to build their own store they have to compete with an established and well-liked competitor. I mean, they could yank all their content and go exclusively direct, but that would make people angry. Even if they could build it and could compete against Comixology, one last thing to consider - is it worth it? It's something they don't know how to do, it's not what they are good at doing, it would be expensive to even make the attempt, and even then someone else already does it really well. Maybe they could do it better, but would the increase in profit offset all of the extra costs and risk? Comics aren't making video game money these days, you know? It may be as simple as they've crunched the numbers and it's simply not worth it when they could just let someone else deal with it completely and collect a check. None of this is to say they could never do it. If Papa Disney wanted to throw around some of that Uncle Scrooge money to make it happen I have no doubt they could do it very well. I just don't see why they would want to. |
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ironchimp
Full Member
Simian Overlord
Posts: 456 
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Post by ironchimp on Aug 3, 2014 4:09:47 GMT -5
If a big publisher sells their own stuff on a dedicated site, the marketing costs would be as much, if not more that the fees Comixology takes, plus you now have to pay staff to maintain the infrastructure and do all the uploading, and maintenance on the site. Those associated costs and opportunity costs are very likely more than the cost of doing business with Comixology or some other digital distribution site that takes a fee. -M As we have seen though Marvel Unlimited is $10 a month. When you use your marvel digital code you go through marvel's site not comixology i believe. Pirate sites do it for free. Dark horse has its own app. The basic technology is probably 10 years old now to do all this. 1000s and 1000s of sites have been made with this infrastructure. It's really not expensive to make or administer and the companies themselves actually already have it. Hosting and distributing files from such a site - the cost is a pittance. Amazon have 1000s and 1000s of free books on their site while Marvel gave 700 books away on comixology. The problem was no-one from the major publishers would sit around a table together and create a single digital distribution platform and now they have fallen into the hell that is an amazon monoply |
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Post by thwhtguardian on Aug 3, 2014 10:24:17 GMT -5
I've never had an issue taken from me and I haven't heard of any company pulling its issues either. Also it's pretty easy to move from platform to platform, I've never done it but I could view a book on my nook, my laptop, my girlfriend's desktop, my phone, my girlfriend's phone, her laptop and her phone all at the same time with out any issues. As for physically owning it, unless I lose power or where ever the server is loses power I can view it anytime I want so I don't see a huge difference in terms of ownership. I don't remember the name, but there was a content service that had proprietary software that users had to use to access their stuff after they bought it. Company went under and shut down the servers; users lost their stuff. If I own a physical copy, it is always mine. It doesn't rely on anyone else continuing to give me access to it. One of my major concerns with a lot of current digital "sales" is they really aren't. It's more like a lease, and I don't like not owning what I buy. This is why I could make an exception for truly DRM-free unrestricted content in an open format, though. And yeah, I like to know I could maybe sell the comic if I wanted to. There a few pretty significant hurdles that I think would prevent Marvel from doing this. First, it's just not a onetime investment of a little R&D. They have to build it and maintain it, make sure it is secure, fast and reliable. It's just not what they do as a business. They are in the business of making comics and letting other people deal with selling them. Operating a digital retail operation is completely out of scope for them, and they would need to hire in that talent or outsource it which costs even more money. It's also really important not to discount first mover advantage. Marvel or DC should have pioneered digital comics before someone else did, but they dragged their feet and now they have to contend with a big entrenched distributor in Comixology just like iTunes and music labels. The time to take it on internally would have been before Comoxilogy got so big. Now, even if Marvel decides to build their own store they have to compete with an established and well-liked competitor. I mean, they could yank all their content and go exclusively direct, but that would make people angry. Even if they could build it and could compete against Comixology, one last thing to consider - is it worth it? It's something they don't know how to do, it's not what they are good at doing, it would be expensive to even make the attempt, and even then someone else already does it really well. Maybe they could do it better, but would the increase in profit offset all of the extra costs and risk? Comics aren't making video game money these days, you know? It may be as simple as they've crunched the numbers and it's simply not worth it when they could just let someone else deal with it completely and collect a check. None of this is to say they could never do it. If Papa Disney wanted to throw around some of that Uncle Scrooge money to make it happen I have no doubt they could do it very well. I just don't see why they would want to. The chances of that happening with a site like comixology are about the same as your house catching fire or flooding though, and the chances of those events happening don't stop you from buying physical copies do they? |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Aug 4, 2014 0:18:31 GMT -5
It was Graphic.ly that went under... I have no personal experience with it, but I know when it happened there was a fair amount of whining on CBR about people losing stuff.
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Post by impulse on Aug 4, 2014 8:51:10 GMT -5
Personally, I don't like not owning control of my items. I don't like this encroachment into personal property rights a lot of these digital content provider are enacting. While it's unlikely Amazon will go under and I won't be able to stream my Game of Thrones episodes anymore, if I buy the disc I will always have it. I can watch it, I can sell it, I can give it away if I want to. It's mine. As long as I have electricity, I can pop it in any time and watch it. I don't have to go through a middleman to access my stuff. While it is functionally almost the same thing and it is unlikely any of these larger players will go away, the risk of this, no matter how small, makes it of lesser value than owning something physical to me, anyway.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Aug 4, 2014 12:08:21 GMT -5
Personally, I don't like not owning control of my items. I don't like this encroachment into personal property rights a lot of these digital content provider are enacting. While it's unlikely Amazon will go under and I won't be able to stream my Game of Thrones episodes anymore, if I buy the disc I will always have it. I can watch it, I can sell it, I can give it away if I want to. It's mine. As long as I have electricity, I can pop it in any time and watch it. I don't have to go through a middleman to access my stuff. While it is functionally almost the same thing and it is unlikely any of these larger players will go away, the risk of this, no matter how small, makes it of lesser value than owning something physical to me, anyway. Physical items have that same small risk though, someone could break into your home and steal your copy of Game of Thrones, your house could catch on fire and melt your discs, a watermain could burst and flood your house causing water damage to your discs. Like wise you can choose to lend your digital copy to friends by either letting them borrow your tablet or nook or simply letting them borrow your password. In the past when I've said that people have responded with, "What if my friend uses my account to buy stuff unauthorized? Or breaks my Tablet?" but that doesn't hold for me either as similarly your friend could damage or lose the physical copy after you lend it to them and if you don't trust your friend enough to not run up a huge bill on your account a) just disable the card while your friend has time to either watch or read the item, or b) why are they your friend in the first place if you can't trust them? Again, the only issue is re-sale and it's not that big of an issue as it seems unlikely that the big players will go digital only any time soon. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2014 12:56:45 GMT -5
Marvel already did create a digital store. I have a feeling Comixology isn't any more work than Marvel's subscription service. It was just done in a way that interfaces better with people's tablets and phones. I don't think it would be a whole lot more work for Marvel to make their online marketplace preferable to Comixology. A one time cost. Then the typical site operation and maintenance they're already paying for.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Aug 4, 2014 14:00:28 GMT -5
Personally, I Physical items have that same small risk though, someone could break into your home and steal your copy of Game of Thrones, your house could catch on fire and melt your discs, a watermain could burst and flood your house causing water damage to your discs. Like wise you can choose to lend your digital copy to friends by either letting them borrow your tablet or nook or simply letting them borrow your password. In the past when I've said that people have responded with, "What if my friend uses my account to buy stuff unauthorized? Or breaks my Tablet?" but that doesn't hold for me either as similarly your friend could damage or lose the physical copy after you lend it to them and if you don't trust your friend enough to not run up a huge bill on your account a) just disable the card while your friend has time to either watch or read the item, or b) why are they your friend in the first place if you can't trust them? Again, the only issue is re-sale and it's not that big of an issue as it seems unlikely that the big players will go digital only any time soon. True, but that feels alot more in your control, IMO. Also, most people have insurance on the things in their home. I'm sure most of us don't have specific insurance on their comics (It's far too expensive), but it does cover you for cover price, more or less. I'm pretty sure sharing your password violates the T&C of most of those sites, which, if you do it often, could get you in trouble, even lose your stuff... it's harder to prove these days with mobile the way it is, but it still exists. Certainly loaning out an expensive (and multi-tasking) item like a tablet is FAR more a big deal than a comic or book.. that almost goes without saying. I certainly wouldn't do it. Having someone having to replace a $4 comic is quite different than a $500 tablet. One is a small bummer, and no big deal. the other is a relationship-breaker. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2014 15:41:15 GMT -5
I'm not much worried about the risk either way. I am a little worried about a digital file and which devices it will work on. I have an iPad now. It's pretty old though and I'll likely get a new tablet next year. Don't know which brand yet, or which operating system. I use it mainly for work but I do read ebooks on the rare occasion I read an actual book. And I watch Hulu on the iPad. I used to do a lot more but it's old and a lot of apps will crash it now so I've deleted most everything so I can focus on work with it.
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