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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2015 2:52:52 GMT -5
That's absolutely true, but it's the way this was handled that makes it so bad. Why, of all possible solutions (Cosmic Cubes, etc.) would you use Mephisto aka. Marvel's Satan other than to fuel an already controversial issue? I'll never understand the angle that divorcing him would make him too old either, seeing as how they've made no attempt to revert his age. I agree that the marriage was a bad idea from the start. The only way superhero marriage works for me is when both are heroes, such as in the classic case of Reed and Sue in the FF. When a hero is out risking their life saving the planet, and the spouse is complaining about said hero not taking out the trash or changing a diaper, it grates on my nerves. It's often not even satire, but meant as a serious critique. Talk about frivolous and myopic. it's the same attitude that police officers often seem to get from their spouses, though (I've known a couple over the years whose wives seemed incapable of understanding that their job wasn't 9-5 despite having actually known they were police officers when they met them. Baffling). Or firefighters, or EMTs, or soldiers, or... See I don't think the marriage was a bad idea and if Peter is an everyman, marriage is not something that takes away from it. I also never got the criticism that Trebor makes that a spouse's reaction as he stated was unrealistic, it happens quite often in the real world and is a lot more believable than the swinging success with the ladies of all sorts (seemingly every female supporting cast member introduced into the book ever)a single Peter is-which to me is wish fulfillment not everyman and actually detracts from the character in a way a married Peter never did for me. Especially if none of them can piece together the secret identity double life he leads. Fooling some of the people close to him some of the time, ok, but not all of them all the time. The conflict of duty/obligations to the job vs. duty/obligations to one's spouse and family is writing from reality and part of the soap opera element that is part and parcel of the Marvel experience. Going back to a single swinging Peter seems to me to be the laziest of writing one can imagine. I can't say One More Day was bad, I never bothered to read it because the cop out nature of it appalled me at the time, and I had given up on the Spidey books sometime after they resurrected Norman (before even Sins past) and never really looked back as it seemed that after the Clone Saga failed miserably no one (with the possible exception of J.M. DeMatteis) had a clue how to write a Peter/Spidey that was growing up and maturing as everyone does, and the everyman appeal had left the building, not because he was married but because the creators couldn't come up with anything to do with a maturing Peter Parker that wasn't a lame attempt to retread past glories of the character until they gave up the ghost and just regressed the character back to the status quo he had so it was easier to copy and rehash old stories for. As for worst comics ever read...anything "written" by Terry Kavanaugh would be a nominee for me, some of the 80's black and white parody books also get a nomination from me. But I try to keep the distinction between worse comics and comics I don't like. There are some that are just technical fails-bad storytelling, not understanding how the medium works, bad dialogue, and comics which are competently produced but that I just don't like. The Kavanaugh stuff borders on competent but I despised it. The 80s parodies mostly lacked technical competence. I think my personal nominee though would be X-Farce....  a technical fail on every level, it's not even good parody or satire, and the art seems more like a loving homage to Liefeld than an actual attempt to lampoon it. -M |
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Post by Nowhere Man on Sept 22, 2015 2:57:53 GMT -5
I've seen that too. There does seem to be a trend in a lot of 20 and 21st century writing to elevate the common place above the exceptional. It's probably a simple overreaction to elitism. My life is common place, but I'd much rather have one with a bit more adventure and excitement in it. Just to be honest, if I could be the Silver Surfer (sans the herald gig and the mass genocidal boss) I'd take it up in a second. It's not popular to admit that a fantasy like that trumps a wife and kids, but when I'm honest with myself...
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Post by Nowhere Man on Sept 22, 2015 3:01:26 GMT -5
I've always disliked those aspects of the Marvel experience. I get that it's a way to layer otherwise fantastic characters with a veneer of relatability, but it usually comes off as heavy handed and coy to me. If you don't get the massive importance and commitment of a selfish crime-fighter, then you really shouldn't be dating or married to them. I'd go so far to say that it's irresponsible to have something as serious as a wife/husband and kids when you live a life that fraught with danger and enemies that wouldn't think twice about killing you, your spouse, and every member of your family, over a minor offense. Unless the kids have some kind of defense (Franklin is basically god) then it's a touchy subject for me.
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Post by tingramretro on Sept 22, 2015 3:29:26 GMT -5
I've always disliked those aspects of the Marvel experience. I get that it's a way to layer otherwise fantastic characters with a veneer of relatability, but it usually comes off as heavy handed and coy to me. If you don't get the massive importance and commitment of a selfish crime-fighter, then you really shouldn't be dating or married to them. I'd go so far to say that it's irresponsible to have something as serious as a wife/husband and kids when you live a life that fraught with danger and enemies that wouldn't think twice about killing you, your spouse, and every member of your family, over a minor offense. Unless the kids have some kind of defense (Franklin is basically god) then it's a touchy subject for me. Does that mean all police officers should take a vow of celibacy? How very Judge Dredd... |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2015 3:32:59 GMT -5
I've always disliked those aspects of the Marvel experience. I get that it's a way to layer otherwise fantastic characters with a veneer of relatability, but it usually comes off as heavy handed and coy to me. If you don't get the massive importance and commitment of a selfish crime-fighter, then you really shouldn't be dating or married to them. I'd go so far to say that it's irresponsible to have something as serious as a wife/husband and kids when you live a life that fraught with danger and enemies that wouldn't think twice about killing you, your spouse, and every member of your family, over a minor offense. Unless the kids have some kind of defense (Franklin is basically god) then it's a touchy subject for me. Which aspects-the soap opera-it's not Marvel without it. From FF #1 on the soap opera element has been what defined Marvel and made it distinct from DC. Ben's coming to terms with being a monster and his rage-soap opera. Reed and Sue's romance, with Namor making a triangle-soap opera. Reed and Doom's rivalry-soap opera. Peter's high school angst-soap opera. Aunt May's fraility-soap opera. Hank and Jan's rocky romance and Jan's wandering eye (oh those dreamy shoulders of Thor)-soap opera, Hank's feeling of inadequacy and changing identity-soap opera, Tony's heart condition soap opera, the playboy who can't commit to a girl he loves because of the chestplate-soap opera, Thor and Loki's sibling rivalry-soap opera, and on and on and on. And a counter point to yours-if you don't get the massive importance and commitment to your partner in a committed relationship you aren't going to succeed in one-whether the conflict comes from the job (saving the universe or negotiating a corporate merger, stopping a mugger or making a sale) the balance between obligations is the challenge of adult life. To think someone can be tunnel visioned as a hero only doing things to save the day is unrealistic and makes for some very dull and repetitive storytelling. No growth, no stakes for the hero and really you have no story, and the stakes aren't did he stop Galactus from eating the planet, but did he save Alicia the only woman he loves and who accepts his monstrous self as he is. It's not irresponsible, it's often the reason they do the things they do with the passion and commitment they need to do it. It's what makes them heroes and characters not mythic gods and plot devices. Stories don't need to be realistic, but they need to have a sense of verisimilitude-a grounding that allows the reader to accept the fantastic elements along with the real. Having an unattached protagonist who just does heroic things without family, commitment, love interests, in a sense without stakes in the world, strips the stories of any of that sense of verisimilitude and reduces them to plots with plot puppets and not true stories. How effective would the Pheonix/Dark Phoenix saga be if there weren't personal connections between Jean and Scott, Jean and Logan, Jean and the Professor, Jean and Ororo, Jean and her parents struggling to accept what she's become-those are the elements that make it story not plot and plot puppets being moved through the motions to achieve the climax. Without the stakes there's no possibility of a denouement after the climax, nothing to make the story matter to the characters or the reader. -M |
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Post by sunofdarkchild on Sept 22, 2015 5:02:49 GMT -5
The biggest problem with OMD is that it sprung from the idea that the only way to write Spider-Man is to write him the way he was in the 1970s, and that any evolution from that characterization is to be avoided at all costs. The same attachment to the past is what I think has been sinking both Marvel and DC for years now.
Getting rid of the marriage would always be controversial, so it required an extremely good story to sell it. Instead we got yet another editorially mandated story where every character is an idiot and the PIS is through the roof because editorial says so, another common problem in the industry.
Instead of giving us a story about their last day as a couple, MJ barely appears and Peter spends the whole time being a selfish a-hole who is still no more mature than the average 15 year old and incapable of actually taking responsibility, which is a betrayal of everything the character is supposed to be about.
The story is lazily written, yet another common problem. A few seconds of thought would have been enoughto fix many of the problems with the plot and the characterization, and they couldn't be bothered.
And then there is the scene where they call everyone who goes for escapist entertainment a loser who can only get fulfillment vicariously through fake heroes, meaning they just called everyone who reads their products on a regular basis losers. Condescension towards the fans is yet another common industry problem. But this was so blatant I couldn't believe it.
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,202 
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Post by Confessor on Sept 22, 2015 7:01:15 GMT -5
The final part of the One More Day fiasco in Amazing Spider-Man (Vol. 2) #545 must be at the top of my personal comics hatelist. Just an utterly terrible conclusion to a terrible storyline that did irreversible damage to a beloved fictional character of mine. The stench of what happened in that issue is still clinging to the Spider-Man comics some 7+ years later.  Still don't see the problem. Marrying Spidey was a mistake in the first place, in my opinion. I disagree...and years of top selling issues with a married Spider-Man in them tends to suggest that most readers didn't feel the way you did. I mostly agree with what Trebor the Unconquered has written. Even if we accept that you are right and it was the wrong thing to do to the character, having Peter (and MJ, for that matter) act in the way that he (they) did, based on the ridiculously flimsy premise of Mephisto finding their love to be incredibly desirable, due to its purity, and consequently retconing the marriage away, undoing years of character development (not just for Peter and MJ, but also for characters like the Black Cat) was not the way to fix it. A divorce would've been so much better in the long term than the convoluted, nonsensical mess and -- I can't stress this enough -- COMPLETELY out of character actions of Peter that we eventually got. Like I say, the current Spider-Man comics still haven't wholly recovered from the OMD mess in my opinion. The fact that Quesada et al tried in vain to fix their clusterf**k with the unbelievably bad One Moment in Time story arc some years later, when in fact that piece of garbage only made things much worse, demonstrates amply how much of a ill thought out mess the original concept behind One More Day was. Normally, I'm not one to get upset about what happens in comics...they're only funny books, after all, and hardly important in the grand scheme of things. But the whole One More Day/Mephisto deal thing angered me in a way that I've never been angered by a comic book before. The biggest problem with OMD is that it sprung from the idea that the only way to write Spider-Man is to write him the way he was in the 1970s, and that any evolution from that characterization is to be avoided at all costs. The same attachment to the past is what I think has been sinking both Marvel and DC for years now. Getting rid of the marriage would always be controversial, so it required an extremely good story to sell it. Instead we got yet another editorially mandated story where every character is an idiot and the PIS is through the roof because editorial says so, another common problem in the industry. Instead of giving us a story about their last day as a couple, MJ barely appears and Peter spends the whole time being a selfish a-hole who is still no more mature than the average 15 year old and incapable of actually taking responsibility, which is a betrayal of everything the character is supposed to be about. The story is lazily written, yet another common problem. A few seconds of thought would have been enoughto fix many of the problems with the plot and the characterization, and they couldn't be bothered. Yep, this pretty much sums up my feelings about OMD. Couldn't agree more with this, sunofdarkchild. |
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Post by Gene on Sept 22, 2015 7:41:40 GMT -5
This one is up there. Absolute garbage wrapped in a Dave Johnson cover.  |
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Post by dbutler69 on Sept 22, 2015 7:55:28 GMT -5
One that leaps to mind for me is Avengers #178, "The Martyr Perplex". Some raggedy weirdo shows up to the Beast informing him that "there's something in you that needs killing" along with some other psychobabble BS that for some reason affects the Beast. He spends the rest of the issue in naval-gazing until the raggedy guy shows up to someone else with the same dumb proclamation. On top of that was art (breakdowns at least) from Carmine Infantino that was far, far from his best efforts. Utterly stupid crap. How did I miss that one?!? I have ratings for most of my Avengers comics, and I gave that one a 5.2, which might be the lowest rating I've given to any Avengers comic. |
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Post by tingramretro on Sept 22, 2015 8:30:05 GMT -5
Still don't see the problem. Marrying Spidey was a mistake in the first place, in my opinion. I disagree...and years of top selling issues with a married Spider-Man in them tends to suggest that most readers didn't feel the way you did. I mostly agree with what Trebor the Unconquered has written. Even if we accept that you are right and it was the wrong thing to do to the character, having Peter (and MJ, for that matter) act in the way that he (they) did, based on the ridiculously flimsy premise of Mephisto finding their love to be incredibly desirable, due to its purity, and consequently retconing the marriage away, undoing years of character development (not just for Peter and MJ, but also for characters like the Black Cat) was not the way to fix it. A divorce would've been so much better in the long term than the convoluted, nonsensical mess and -- I can't stress this enough -- COMPLETELY out of character actions of Peter that we eventually got. Like I say, the current Spider-Man comics still haven't wholly recovered from the OMD mess in my opinion. The fact that Quesada et al tried in vain to fix their clusterf**k with the unbelievably bad One Moment in Time story arc some years later, when in fact that piece of garbage only made things much worse, demonstrates amply how much of a ill thought out mess the original concept behind One More Day was. Normally, I'm not one to get upset about what happens in comics...they're only funny books, after all, and hardly important in the grand scheme of things. But the whole One More Day/Mephisto deal thing angered me in a way that I've never been angered by a comic book before. Fair enough. It never bothered me, but that was primarily because I never thought they should have married him off in the first place so I was just pleased to have the relatively uncomplicated free and single Spidey of my youth back. But since I get quite upset if I think my particular favourite characters (like Captain Britain) are being mishandled, I suppose I can see why it might have angered people who were very invested in those stories. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2015 9:15:38 GMT -5
I've read too many awful comics to remember over the years, and as was said above, the indie / small publisher ones are generally orders of magnitude worse than anything that escapes from the doors of the big publishers... so, I'm going to go for a couple that I remember from big(ish) publishers:
1. The E-Man relaunch by (I think) Eclipse. Written, if I remember correctly, by Marty Pasko, it was intended to be a hilarious spoof other comic series, but was just relentlessly unfunny
2. Crisis on Infinite Earths - so badly written, so dull, so repetitive and started a whole series of continuity clusterfraks at DC as they attempted to tie & untie themselves from the knots that they got into by the half-hearted line reboot that followed.
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Post by tingramretro on Sept 22, 2015 9:43:33 GMT -5
I've read too many awful comics to remember over the years, and as was said above, the indie / small publisher ones are generally orders of magnitude worse than anything that escapes from the doors of the big publishers... so, I'm going to go for a couple that I remember from big(ish) publishers: 1. The E-Man relaunch by (I think) Eclipse. Written, if I remember correctly, by Marty Pasko, it was intended to be a hilarious spoof other comic series, but was just relentlessly unfunny The E-Man relaunch was actually from First Comics, not Eclipse. But it wasn't great, I agree. |
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Post by Nowhere Man on Sept 22, 2015 10:49:54 GMT -5
I've always disliked those aspects of the Marvel experience. I get that it's a way to layer otherwise fantastic characters with a veneer of relatability, but it usually comes off as heavy handed and coy to me. If you don't get the massive importance and commitment of a selfish crime-fighter, then you really shouldn't be dating or married to them. I'd go so far to say that it's irresponsible to have something as serious as a wife/husband and kids when you live a life that fraught with danger and enemies that wouldn't think twice about killing you, your spouse, and every member of your family, over a minor offense. Unless the kids have some kind of defense (Franklin is basically god) then it's a touchy subject for me. Does that mean all police officers should take a vow of celibacy? How very Judge Dredd... To clarify first, the soap opera elements I dislike are situations where you have a hero and a normal spouse or girlfriend/boyfriend that's in on it but is otherwise a civilian. It just doesn't work for me. I'm fine if said significant other is a hero, secret agent, or even super scientist. I'm not against romance or angst, I just don't like the set-up we had when Mary Jane and Peter were married. Also, I was specifically talking about superheroes who reveal their identities. I in no way advocate celibacy for police officers. If I wanted to live in a society filled with sexually repressed public officials, I'd time travel back to the days of the Inquisition. |
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Post by tingramretro on Sept 22, 2015 11:18:13 GMT -5
Does that mean all police officers should take a vow of celibacy? How very Judge Dredd... To clarify first, the soap opera elements I dislike are situations where you have a hero and a normal spouse or girlfriend/boyfriend that's in on it but is otherwise a civilian. It just doesn't work for me. I'm fine if said significant other is a hero, secret agent, or even super scientist. I'm not against romance or angst, I just don't like the set-up we had when Mary Jane and Peter were married. Also, I was specifically talking about superheroes who reveal their identities. I in no way advocate celibacy for police officers. If I wanted to live in a society filled with sexually repressed public officials, I'd time travel back to the days of the Inquisition. But Peter didn't reveal his identity. Not until Civil War, and the consequences of that, basically, were exactly what you're suggesting would happen. Which in itself led to the marriage being erased. |
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Post by coke & comics on Sept 22, 2015 12:28:04 GMT -5
 Not one redeeming feature in this book. I can't believe it sold 1 million copies. This is a good example. Probably the most successful terrible comic and the worst successful comic. For me, the worst is going to be personally upsetting, which requires it being part of a series I generally like. A Spider-Man or Avengers story. For Avengers, it's the Crossing.  Kang had brainwashed Iron Man into his sleeper agent years before. Now Iron Man is activated and begins killing the Avengers: Gilgamesh, the female Yellowjacket. Finally he tips his hand in order to eliminate Marilla the nursemaid. For Spider-Man, it's the 9 issue debacle that makes up the Gathering of Five and Final Chapter arcs. The most ignoble end imaginable to a great series. A close contender is of course the personally upsetting Sins Past.  |
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