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Post by Prince Hal on Jan 22, 2016 10:15:30 GMT -5
That formula served to make them #1 from the late 60's onward. In my opinion , when you compare any team book to the first 50 or so issues of Avengers or Fantastic Four, you're just embarrassing the other book. I'll take the Fox/ Sekowsky JLA over the first 50 issues of Fantastic Four or Avengers. FIGHT! FIGHT!
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Post by DE Sinclair on Jan 22, 2016 10:34:34 GMT -5
I'll take the Fox/ Sekowsky JLA over the first 50 issues of Fantastic Four or Avengers. FIGHT! FIGHT! Well, if there's a fight, I'd have to side with either the FF or the Avengers over the JLA of this era. While the JLA stories have their charms (Snapper Carr wasn't one of them), the characters were interchangeable, personality-less drones. Certain members of the FF or Avengers may have gotten occasionally a bit too whiney, but at least they acted a little differently from each other.
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Post by tingramretro on Jan 22, 2016 10:50:58 GMT -5
That formula served to make them #1 from the late 60's onward. In my opinion , when you compare any team book to the first 50 or so issues of Avengers or Fantastic Four, you're just embarrassing the other book. I'll take the Fox/ Sekowsky JLA over the first 50 issues of Fantastic Four or Avengers. Really? They're fun stories, admittedly, but the JLA don't actually have personalities in those issues, do they? You can't actually care about them. Whereas the Avengers came across as being real people.
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Post by Prince Hal on Jan 22, 2016 11:03:44 GMT -5
Well, if there's a fight, I'd have to side with either the FF or the Avengers over the JLA of this era. While the JLA stories have their charms (Snapper Carr wasn't one of them), the characters were interchangeable, personality-less drones. Certain members of the FF or Avengers may have gotten occasionally a bit too whiney, but at least they acted a little differently from each other. I really don't have a dog in this one. Going back to reread almost any series from that time reveals the use and overuse of particular shtiks, tropes, motifs, whatever, by the writers (though the artists weren't guiltless, either) as we have often said here. The JLA compared to either of the Marvel series, comes across as stodgy and old-fashioned. The formula of confronting the menace in smaller teams gets old fast, and the characters display almost no personality. The openings and the endings inevitably are brief, and leave little chance for the reader to get to know these characters as anything more than costumes. On the other hand, as exciting as the personality clashes and the purple prose of Stan and later Roy Thomas could be, they also grew stale because they fell prey to the same flaw inherent to every soap opera: there's never really a resolution to any conflict. The same old feelings and arguments are simply churned and rechurned, like a Maury show with superheroes. In small doses, each of these series has its charms, whether it be the cleverness of Fox's plots and the grandeur and professionalism of the DC pantheon flying out to take on the latest cosmic menace or the histrionics and wise-ass attitude of the scruffy, often outcast Marvel heroes saving the universe. Kirby's art on FF might be seen by some to tilt the scale in their favor, as even if the story was a rehash or remake, that Kirby art made everything look that much more dramatic. Both Heck and Sekowsky were at best acquired tastes. In Sekowsky's case, his skill at incorporating so many characters into so few panels was always touted. Not so sure about what anybody would love about Heck's art on Avengers, though; he was competent, but never exciting. JLA was like the Republican establishment: we're here, we've always been here, and weknow how to do this stuff. Marvel had to upset the applecart to get any notice whatsoever, and they did.
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Post by DE Sinclair on Jan 22, 2016 11:10:37 GMT -5
Well, if there's a fight, I'd have to side with either the FF or the Avengers over the JLA of this era. While the JLA stories have their charms (Snapper Carr wasn't one of them), the characters were interchangeable, personality-less drones. Certain members of the FF or Avengers may have gotten occasionally a bit too whiney, but at least they acted a little differently from each other. I really don't have a dog in this one. Going back to reread almost any series from that time reveals the use and overuse of particular shtiks, tropes, motifs, whatever, by the writers (though the artists weren't guiltless, either) as we have often said here. The JLA compared to either of the Marvel series, comes across as stodgy and old-fashioned. The formula of confronting the menace in smaller teams gets old fast, and the characters display almost no personality. The openings and the endings inevitably are brief, and leave little chance for the reader to get to know these characters as anything more than costumes. On the other hand, as exciting as the personality clashes and the purple prose of Stan and later Roy Thomas could be, they also grew stale because they fell prey to the same flaw inherent to every soap opera: there's never really a resolution to any conflict. The same old feelings and arguments are simply churned and rechurned, like a Maury show with superheroes. In small doses, each of these series has its charms, whether it be the cleverness of Fox's plots and the grandeur and professionalism of the DC pantheon flying out to take on the latest cosmic menace or the histrionics and wise-ass attitude of the scruffy, often outcast Marvel heroes saving the universe. Kirby's art on FF might be seen by some to tilt the scale in their favor, as even if the story was a rehash or remake, that Kirby art made everything look that much more dramatic. Both Heck and Sekowsky were at best acquired tastes. In Sekowsky's case, his skill at incorporating so many characters into so few panels was always touted. Not so sure about what anybody would love about Heck's art on Avengers, though; he was competent, but never exciting. JLA was like the Republican establishment: we're here, we've always been here, and weknow how to do this stuff. Marvel had to upset the applecart to get any notice whatsoever, and they did. Very good analysis.
Early Silver-Age JLA = Stodgy Republicans Early Silver-Age Marvel = Wise-ass scruffy outcasts
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Post by realjla on Jan 22, 2016 11:59:42 GMT -5
Like Alley Oop, Atom only interests me if it's a time-travel story You're missing lots of fun stuff. I read it online once in a while, and, like Atom stories, it's 'not terrible' if Alley isn't time traveling, but it's also not terribly memorable. I tend to make a point to follow the time travel stuff until he gets back home. The pacing of the strip is such that out of three panels a day, only one advances the plot, after the other two recap the previous day's panel.
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Post by Prince Hal on Jan 22, 2016 12:37:47 GMT -5
You're missing lots of fun stuff. I read it online once in a while, and, like Atom stories, it's 'not terrible' if Alley isn't time traveling, but it's also not terribly memorable. I tend to make a point to follow the time travel stuff until he gets back home. The pacing of the strip is such that out of three panels a day, only one advances the plot, after the other two recap the previous day's panel. I thought you were referring ot the VT Hamlin Alley oop, not the newer version. Haven't sampled that much, so can't speak for how good it is. It's the "Golden Age " strips I was talking about.
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Post by Action Ace on Jan 22, 2016 15:10:48 GMT -5
I'll take the Fox/ Sekowsky JLA over the first 50 issues of Fantastic Four or Avengers. Really? They're fun stories, admittedly, but the JLA don't actually have personalities in those issues, do they? You can't actually care about them. Whereas the Avengers came across as being real people. As we discussed in the JLI thread, characters not having personalities isn't a problem for me. I'll take earnest whitebread Boy Scouts over anything else.
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Post by Action Ace on Jan 22, 2016 15:12:15 GMT -5
I really don't have a dog in this one. Going back to reread almost any series from that time reveals the use and overuse of particular shtiks, tropes, motifs, whatever, by the writers (though the artists weren't guiltless, either) as we have often said here. The JLA compared to either of the Marvel series, comes across as stodgy and old-fashioned. The formula of confronting the menace in smaller teams gets old fast, and the characters display almost no personality. The openings and the endings inevitably are brief, and leave little chance for the reader to get to know these characters as anything more than costumes. On the other hand, as exciting as the personality clashes and the purple prose of Stan and later Roy Thomas could be, they also grew stale because they fell prey to the same flaw inherent to every soap opera: there's never really a resolution to any conflict. The same old feelings and arguments are simply churned and rechurned, like a Maury show with superheroes. In small doses, each of these series has its charms, whether it be the cleverness of Fox's plots and the grandeur and professionalism of the DC pantheon flying out to take on the latest cosmic menace or the histrionics and wise-ass attitude of the scruffy, often outcast Marvel heroes saving the universe. Kirby's art on FF might be seen by some to tilt the scale in their favor, as even if the story was a rehash or remake, that Kirby art made everything look that much more dramatic. Both Heck and Sekowsky were at best acquired tastes. In Sekowsky's case, his skill at incorporating so many characters into so few panels was always touted. Not so sure about what anybody would love about Heck's art on Avengers, though; he was competent, but never exciting. JLA was like the Republican establishment: we're here, we've always been here, and weknow how to do this stuff. Marvel had to upset the applecart to get any notice whatsoever, and they did. Very good analysis.
Early Silver-Age JLA = Stodgy Republicans Early Silver-Age Marvel = Wise-ass scruffy outcasts
Given my high level of stodgy Republicaness, it should come as no surprise that I prefer Silver Age JLA then.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Jan 22, 2016 15:30:41 GMT -5
Really? They're fun stories, admittedly, but the JLA don't actually have personalities in those issues, do they? You can't actually care about them. Whereas the Avengers came across as being real people. As we discussed in the JLI thread, characters not having personalities isn't a problem for me. I'll take earnest whitebread Boy Scouts over anything else. And it allows for an insane density of cool plot ideas. You can tell there was SO much more thought put into the actual stories in the JLA books than their Marvel counterparts, and there's always five or six cool sci-fi concepts and two or three great visual hooks in every issue. Marvel had more characterization, but it tended to rely on the same relationships, the same villains, the same visuals (Ben holds up a Kirbymachine and complains while Reed tinkers with it, Sue comes in with a plate of sandwiches) over and over and over and over. And then they go fight the Sub-Mariner for the third time this year. And the reason that JLA could be so dense with cool ideas is that they didn't have Captain America crying "Bucky, Ohhhh Bucky" into his Cheerios for a couple pages every issue.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jan 22, 2016 15:50:58 GMT -5
I liked the whole long hair, beard and hook for a hand Aquaman. He was actually badass for a change. There are far worse eras of Aquaman out there. I will read just about anything PAD. I just have to prepare myself for what will probably be eyef#%&ery art. Art that will be so heavy and jarring that if I move my eyes off the page, I will see trails. PAD's Aquaman was the 1st DC stuff I ever read... before that I was all Marvel (and a bit of Image)... I'll admit 17 year old me through the hook and beard were awesome... still do, really That's definitely a great run... far superior that the Sub Diego nonsense that followed. I also like Rick Jones under PAD.. though not as much as the Pantheon... really, I'm just a big Peter David fan. Though, admittedly, he seems to be stuck in a rut now. I think he needs to leave Marvel for a bit and either do a creator owned series, or something at DC he's never done before.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jan 22, 2016 15:54:51 GMT -5
As for Rick Jones, have he and Snapper Carr ever been seen ion the same place? I think he was a double agent appearing in both universes to make the reader feel cool and better about themselves because while they may not be as cool as Batman or Captain America, at least they knew they were cooler than Snapper Jones or Rick Carr. -M I think Snapper is far, far, more annoying that Rick Jones ever was.... even when Rick Jones in the 60s. Under PAD, he was a 90s slacker, and it worked pretty well.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jan 22, 2016 15:56:08 GMT -5
The only time I've actively liked Aquaman was in the Batman: The Brave & the Bold cartoon.
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Post by Action Ace on Jan 22, 2016 16:00:34 GMT -5
The only time I've actively liked Aquaman was in the Batman: The Brave & the Bold cartoon. OUTRAGEOUS!!! Definitely one of his best versions ever.
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Post by Prince Hal on Jan 22, 2016 16:09:48 GMT -5
Very good analysis.
Early Silver-Age JLA = Stodgy Republicans Early Silver-Age Marvel = Wise-ass scruffy outcasts
Given my high level of stodgy Republicaness, it should come as no surprise that I prefer Silver Age JLA then. I am more of an Independent on this issue.
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