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Post by dbutler69 on Jun 30, 2021 14:36:24 GMT -5
DC Special Series #21 (not #28) does indeed have an original story. I think all of the stories in it are original, though only one is a Legion story. I'm actually thinking of DC Special (different series from DC Special Series), here's a link about it: legionofsuperbloggers.blogspot.com/2015/07/dc-special-28.htmlIt was reprinted in Legion Archive 13 which I have and I just re-read it this morning (I must have forgotten it existed). Sort of a basic short story, but actually kind of neat because it has a rare Chemical King appearance and he "does stuff" to boot! I was always intrigued by him as a kid, even though I couldn't really figure out how he was that different from Element Lad. I felt like he never really got a shot as a regular character before they killed him off. Levitz on script, Arvell Jones on pencils, and the Bob Layton inks give it a nice facelift as usual. I don't think I've read that! I'll have to check it out. Exciting! |
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Post by Farrar on Jun 30, 2021 16:34:58 GMT -5
...It was reprinted in Legion Archive 13 which I have and I just re-read it this morning (I must have forgotten it existed). Sort of a basic short story, but actually kind of neat because it has a rare Chemical King appearance and he "does stuff" to boot! I was always intrigued by him as a kid, even though I couldn't really figure out how he was that different from Element Lad. I felt like he never really got a shot as a regular character before they killed him off... Element Lad's power was to change one element to another, for example hydrogen to oxygen. As for Chemical King, in Adventure #371 (his first time with the team, apart from appearing as a memorial statue in the Adult Legion story a couple of years earlier), he mentioned that he has mastery over chemical reactions. This is elaborated upon in the Adventure #375 lettercol in which the editor--or more likely assistant editor E. Nelson Bridwell--states that Chem "has the power to speed up, slow down, or otherwise alter chemical reactions." In his infrequent appearances back then he usually sped up the oxidation process and created flames, and once he also sped up his own metabolism to give him temporary super-strength. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2021 16:53:09 GMT -5
you said it took the downturn when Giffen came back at #50 I wouldn't say so.
I recall Paul Levitz saying he was feeling burned out and had been thinking of leaving the book earlier than he did, but Keith Giffen's return helped recharge his energy & enthusiasm.
Also, despite reports of almost non-stop "technical" problems putting together #50, I saw it as a real high point in that entire part of the run. It was the climax of about a 6-part story, shockingly far better than all the previous chapters put together (probably due to Giffen's story input & art).
What followed, strangely, was an odd mix, as the stories continued for at least a year being very good, but Giffen almost immediately began "mutating" his art style (AGAIN!). The most noticable quirk (best way I can put it), is he began making all the character look "square" and "blocky", with un-natural fat, square faces. Mike Decarlo (if memory serves) on inks gave it a striking look that reminded me of Jack Kirby and CHIC STONE. Except, with fat faces. (WTF?)
At some point, Al Gordon replaced DeCarlo, and the art took a slow but noticable NOSEDIVE. Also, the stories became increasingly downbeat.
And then "Magic Wars" arrived, and "IT HIT THE FAN". Giffen cut back to layouts, DeCarlo returned to do pencils and inks. It just didn't look right, the entire story MADE NO SENSE, and ended on a catastrophic downbeat note.
And then Karen Berger left as editor, and Paul Levitz left and accepted a promotion to Publisher.
And then things REALLY went COMPLETELY TO HELL. AND STAYED THERE.
I know... I know... a LOT of people beg to differ. I don't care. I lived thru that entire era, and I have no idea how I ever kept buying the book as it maneuvered thru one horrible disaster after another after another. Sometimes, these days, I have no idea why I haven't just taken ALL those issues out into the back yard and SET THEM ON FIRE, to exorcise them from my life (and my comics collection) once and for all.
I actually do have #50, and I did enjoy that issue! The Rond Vidar part was epic, I love where they went with that. Also loved that Ken Steacy cover. I also have the "Magic Wars" issues and completely agree with your assessment. I just don't have the issues in between. Giffen's cover for #54 in that art style you described makes me not want to finish collecting that series. That is not my Dawnstar! |
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Post by profh0011 on Jun 30, 2021 20:02:08 GMT -5
Giffen's cover for #54 in that art style you described makes me not want to finish collecting that series. That is not my Dawnstar! OH. YEAH. He also redesigned the costumes that issue, didn't he? Boy, did they suck. They didn't last too long. I believe I once did a wall poster of the group in those costumes for "KLORDNY".
I also did posters of the Stuart Immonen era, and, the "Legion on the Run" end of that run. The last one I did was a bogus cover for LEGION #1, right after the Zero Hour reboot.
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Post by dbutler69 on Jul 1, 2021 5:07:00 GMT -5
...It was reprinted in Legion Archive 13 which I have and I just re-read it this morning (I must have forgotten it existed). Sort of a basic short story, but actually kind of neat because it has a rare Chemical King appearance and he "does stuff" to boot! I was always intrigued by him as a kid, even though I couldn't really figure out how he was that different from Element Lad. I felt like he never really got a shot as a regular character before they killed him off... Element Lad's power was to change one element to another, for example hydrogen to oxygen. As for Chemical King, in Adventure #371 (his first time with the team, apart from appearing as a memorial statue in the Adult Legion story a couple of years earlier), he mentioned that he has mastery over chemical reactions. This is elaborated upon in the Adventure #375 lettercol in which the editor--or more likely assistant editor E. Nelson Bridwell--states that Chem "has the power to speed up, slow down, or otherwise alter chemical reactions." In his infrequent appearances back then he usually sped up the oxidation process and created flames, and once he also sped up his own metabolism to give him temporary super-strength. Unfortunately, I don't think most of the Legion writers knew enough about science to use Chemical King. As a result, he was terribly underused. He is potentially one of the most powerful Legionnaires. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2021 6:25:11 GMT -5
I can tell you exactly why as a kid I was confused on Chemical King versus Element Lad, beyond the fact I was a little tike who didn't really grasp "transmute" versus "catalyze". My first exposure to him was the ERG-1 story in Superboy #195, and it was this panel that explained his powers to me:  And dbutler69 , I think that's a great call-out on the potential magnitude of his powers. In the hands of the right writer, that could have been really interesting territory to explore. |
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Post by Farrar on Jul 1, 2021 15:58:52 GMT -5
I can tell you exactly why as a kid I was confused on Chemical King versus Element Lad, beyond the fact I was a little tike who didn't really grasp "transmute" versus "catalyze". My first exposure to him was the ERG-1 story in Superboy #195, and it was this panel that explained his powers to me: I hear you--first impressions tend to stick with us, don't they? And also in that same issue #195 writer Cary Bates has Chem shooting "lethal blasts of radioactive cobalt" from his fingers  Well, I guess Bates forgot the nature of Chem's power  (after getting it right in Action #389, but hey, that was 3 years earlier)...or maybe Bates confused Chem with the similarly-named Legion villain Cosmic King (who, like Element Lad, could transmute elements). At any rate, in #205 in the Legion Lore feature (credited to Bridwell) we get this:  |
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Post by Farrar on Jul 1, 2021 16:18:33 GMT -5
Unfortunately, I don't think most of the Legion writers knew enough about science to use Chemical King. As a result, he was terribly underused. He is potentially one of the most powerful Legionnaires. Yes, in Superboy #211 Chem even thinks he could "stop [the villains'] chemical processes, killing them...but that's against the Legion code..." With that much power, he could stop a battle before it started! No wonder he was used sparingly, until it was time to kill him off (as had been foretold in the then-sacrosanct Adult Legion story back in Adventure #354-5. This was before it was decreed that the particular future shown in that story was only one of a multitude possible alternate timelines). |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2021 13:59:52 GMT -5
I've been reading all of the Legion stories from Adventure #247 onward (I'm up to 1984, or 2984) and on the side I just finished reading Star Trek/Legion of Super-Heroes. It was fun! Of course, it's tough to make the Star Trek characters useful when they're teamed up with super powered Legionnaires, and it would have been nice to see some more Legionnaires, but this miniseries was a pleasant diversion. Bumping this comment on the Star Trek/Legion mash-up from 2011, I just re-read it myself and still really enjoyed it:  It's set shortly after the Great Darkness Saga from the Legion perspective of the story, so it's a great throwback to the pre-Crisis team, though I agree dbutler69 , it would have been nice to have seen more Legionnaires included. You get the five on the cover above plus Brainiac 5. I like that it's a total mash-up of their respective universes (that's a major plot point), not just a "general meeting" of the team/crew. Durlans and Dominators, Klingons and Khunds, and some excellent twists on the villains. One of my favorite parts of this is seeing Brainiac 5 and Spock trade wits, like on the page below:  I also like light-hearted moments like Jim, being in character, unsuccessfully attempts to hit on Shadow Lass, and then told about her "boyfriend":  Overall a fun romp and a decent bit of storytelling, something I was very surprised to see when released but glad they did! |
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Post by dbutler69 on Jul 8, 2021 15:24:10 GMT -5
I've been reading all of the Legion stories from Adventure #247 onward (I'm up to 1984, or 2984) and on the side I just finished reading Star Trek/Legion of Super-Heroes. It was fun! Of course, it's tough to make the Star Trek characters useful when they're teamed up with super powered Legionnaires, and it would have been nice to see some more Legionnaires, but this miniseries was a pleasant diversion. Bumping this comment on the Star Trek/Legion mash-up from 2011, I just re-read it myself and still really enjoyed it: It's set shortly after the Great Darkness Saga from the Legion perspective of the story, so it's a great throwback to the pre-Crisis team, though I agree dbutler69 , it would have been nice to have seen more Legionnaires included. You get the five on the cover above plus Brainiac 5. I like that it's a total mash-up of their respective universes (that's a major plot point), not just a "general meeting" of the team/crew. Durlans and Dominators, Klingons and Khunds, and some excellent twists on the villains. One of my favorite parts of this is seeing Brainiac 5 and Spock trade wits, like on the page below: I also like light-hearted moments like Jim, being in character, unsuccessfully attempts to hit on Shadow Lass, and then told about her "boyfriend": Overall a fun romp and a decent bit of storytelling, something I was very surprised to see when released but glad they did! If you're looking for more fun Legion crossovers, Scooby Doo Team-Up #33 has the Legion of Super-Heroes. Scooby Doo Team-Up is an awesome series to being with, and when you add the Legion of Super-Heroes, it's doubly awesome! |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2021 15:34:08 GMT -5
If you're looking for more fun Legion crossovers, Scooby Doo Team-Up #33 has the Legion of Super-Heroes. Scooby Doo Team-Up is an awesome series to being with, and when you add the Legion of Super-Heroes, it's doubly awesome! Oh excellent, I did not know that existed!! I'm a fan of both, can't wait to track down a copy, thanks! |
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jul 8, 2021 15:52:07 GMT -5
Bumping this comment on the Star Trek/Legion mash-up from 2011, I just re-read it myself and still really enjoyed it: Overall a fun romp and a decent bit of storytelling, something I was very surprised to see when released but glad they did! If you're looking for more fun Legion crossovers, Scooby Doo Team-Up #33 has the Legion of Super-Heroes. Scooby Doo Team-Up is an awesome series to being with, and when you add the Legion of Super-Heroes, it's doubly awesome! is just pure joy. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2021 10:30:55 GMT -5
I'm continuing to make my way through the post-Crisis Baxter series issues I never read before. I put my thoughts on the "pocket universe" stories into another thread already, but also have some observations on some of the later issues (rather than use a spoiler tag, I'll just preface that I'm going to refer to some specific events in the Baxter series).
Character-wise, there are a few bright spots like Tellus. He reminds me a bit of the role Blok served when he was newer to the team, that sweetness and innocence trying to find his way to fit in with the team. And that's similarly where I think Levitz starts to fail as well, with the older team members becoming increasingly unlikeable and referring to Tellus with "fish-creature" references instead of his proper name and treating him like an equal.
For instance, Shrinking Violet was reinvented as a hardened character after her abduction and recovery. That's actually an understandable plot device after what she endured, even though I miss the old Vi. But now she's just mean all the time, in many situations that don't call for it. I think Levitz maybe just liked to write his ladies this way, Phantom Girl had been getting obnoxious for a long time as well.
Speaking of snarky ladies, what the heck with Dream Girl and Star Boy falling apart? Atmos? I'm only on issue #46, not sure where this goes but this seems silly (I can't even take Atmos seriously). Similarly Sun Boy has just become so one-dimensional, the proposal to Gigi and her reaction, the romance with Laurel, I don't know. Another character that used to seem so much cooler to me. And then Wildfire and Dawnstar. Wildfire finds a way to become a bit more human in appearance, Dawnstar has a pretty yucky response. I think Levitz was going through a mid-life crisis or something, he just did not seem content with anybody being happy in the series at that point. Also, Timber Wolf has by now just become an outright idiot, yet another lazy characterization to me.
Back on a more positive note, some of the more likeable characters like Jacques/Invisible Kid II stay in character and are refreshing. Quislet continues to be an interesting addition to the team. And I'm glad to see Brainiac 5 continues to be himself, he's always been an important "glue" to the whole team and a favorite of mine. Though I'm just starting the conspiracy issues (again I'm on #46) and not sure yet what he's scheming.
The writing pattern feels uneven to me, but I actually did like the Laurel Kent issues (#42 and 43). It was a bit of an interesting twist, and there was some good action as it played out and an interesting resolution at the end. But on the flip side, I think it also showed how much of a mess things had become. She had just been shot with a Kryptonite bullet and injured, but they don't diagnose her as an android then? And when Laurel reveals herself and fights the Legion, Element Lad actually turns her throne into Kryptonite but it has no effect and she laughs it off since she's not really Kryptonian. In the letters column in a later issue, someone actually calls this out and the response is that she must have used her "green energy" to make herself vulnerable to Kryptonite like a real Kryptonian. So...she left herself vulnerable to a surprise attack, until she later played her hand and "shut it off" in the process. Not to mention when they bury her the android parts are pretty mechanical looking (still not sure after the bullet how that would have been missed).
Last comment is on the art. Greg LaRocque continues to be a bright spot, this is still a great looking book (not to mention some pretty snazzy looking Steve Lightle and Ken Steacy covers). Though I do think the earlier Larry Mahlstedt inked issues were much slicker than Mike DeCarlo's inks.
Onward to issue #50 (which I am familiar with, so finally finishing the journey to how they got there)!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2021 17:52:51 GMT -5
Last post on the Baxter series, I finished reading through #49 and went ahead and re-read #50 as well.
My comments on what doesn't work at this point in the Levitz run per above still stand. I don't even fully understand the need for the conspiracy, even though I see they were trying to make it "heroic". And Duo Damsel's "love" for Superboy, yet again this just hits me the wrong way. It was a crush during the early days of the Legion, and her true romance was with Bouncing Boy who was nothing but a gentleman and a rock for her.
That said, I found issue #50 still has some really good things going on in it. I liked the Rond Vidar reveal and thought that was very clever. Also, a great resolution on the fate of the Infinite Man (always loved that character, reading his first appearance in the 70's was really memorable).
I think I'm at a pause with going any further. I don't have issues 51-59 and not likely to pick up anytime soon, or in all likelihood at all, even though I had kind of planned to do a full run of 80's Legion appearances. I'm honestly not even sure if I want any issues from #37 on in the collection (though I'm probably just being grumpy at the moment), which makes me a bit sad when I think of how great the Legion had been with the Levitz/Giffen team in their prime (all great things must come to an end I suppose).
Heading back to 60's and 70's Legion (and late 50's technically)...I'm thinking it's time for a marathon run starting with the first Legion Archive edition going straight through to the Great Darkness Saga. Long live the Legion!
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Post by dbutler69 on Jul 18, 2021 18:43:27 GMT -5
Last post on the Baxter series, I finished reading through #49 and went ahead and re-read #50 as well. My comments on what doesn't work at this point in the Levitz run per above still stand. I don't even fully understand the need for the conspiracy, even though I see they were trying to make it "heroic". And Duo Damsel's "love" for Superboy, yet again this just hits me the wrong way. It was a crush during the early days of the Legion, and her true romance was with Bouncing Boy who was nothing but a gentleman and a rock for her. That said, I found issue #50 still has some really good things going on in it. I liked the Rond Vidar reveal and thought that was very clever. Also, a great resolution on the fate of the Infinite Man (always loved that character, reading his first appearance in the 70's was really memorable). I think I'm at a pause with going any further. I don't have issues 51-59 and not likely to pick up anytime soon, or in all likelihood at all, even though I had kind of planned to do a full run of 80's Legion appearances. I'm honestly not even sure if I want any issues from #37 on in the collection (though I'm probably just being grumpy at the moment), which makes me a bit sad when I think of how great the Legion had been with the Levitz/Giffen team in their prime (all great things must come to an end I suppose). Heading back to 60's and 70's Legion (and late 50's technically)...I'm thinking it's time for a marathon run starting with the first Legion Archive edition going straight through to the Great Darkness Saga. Long live the Legion! I enjoyed the entire Baxter run, but it takes a sharp downturn starting with #50. Up until then, it's pure gold. |
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(after getting it right in Action #389, but hey, that was 3 years earlier)...or maybe Bates confused Chem with the similarly-named Legion villain Cosmic King (who, like Element Lad, could transmute elements). 
