|
|
Post by Phil Maurice on Jan 7, 2016 16:39:42 GMT -5
The reason Julius Schwartz dropped Bat-Girl and the rest of the Bat-Family characters is simple. The sales on Batman and Detective had been steadily dropping since before the imposition of the Comics Code and were veering dangerously close to cancellation levels. Kurt, is there any truth to the rumor that Bat-Woman and Bat-Girl were introduced to counter Wertham's assertions that "Batman stories are psychologically homosexual." It seems like the sort of nonsense that is best ignored. Did DC editorial take it seriously and quickly add a feminine element, or is it an urban legend? |
|
|
|
Post by Reptisaurus! on Jan 7, 2016 16:39:52 GMT -5
Bibbo and Cat Grant are the two post-Crisis Superman cast members I consider worthy editions to he lore. Cei-U! I summon my fav'rits! Yeah, agreed actually. I read somewhere that Bibbo was based on Captain Strong (who is based on Popeye!) |
|
|
|
Post by Cei-U! on Jan 7, 2016 17:36:22 GMT -5
The reason Julius Schwartz dropped Bat-Girl and the rest of the Bat-Family characters is simple. The sales on Batman and Detective had been steadily dropping since before the imposition of the Comics Code and were veering dangerously close to cancellation levels. Kurt, is there any truth to the rumor that Bat-Woman and Bat-Girl were introduced to counter Wertham's assertions that "Batman stories are psychologically homosexual." It seems like the sort of nonsense that is best ignored. Did DC editorial take it seriously and quickly add a feminine element, or is it an urban legend? That theory has been circulating for years and even stated as fact in some places but I'm skeptical. True, the timing is close: SotI was published in '54, Batwoman first appeared in '56. But if that were the case, why leave all DC's other man/boy teams (Green Arrow/Speedy, Congo Bill/Janu, Tomahawk/Dan) intact? And why add two more (Aquaman/Aqualad, Flash/Kid Flash) later? No, I think Batwoman was added for the same reason Bat-Hound and Bat-Mite were: to emulate Weisinger's successful revitalization of the Superman franchise. Anything more strikes me as an imposition of 21st Century standards on mid-20th Century events. Cei-U! I summon my two cents' worth! |
|
|
|
Post by DE Sinclair on Jan 7, 2016 17:43:23 GMT -5
Kurt, is there any truth to the rumor that Bat-Woman and Bat-Girl were introduced to counter Wertham's assertions that "Batman stories are psychologically homosexual." It seems like the sort of nonsense that is best ignored. Did DC editorial take it seriously and quickly add a feminine element, or is it an urban legend? That theory has been circulating for years and even stated as fact in some places but I'm skeptical. True, the timing is close: SotI was published in '54, Batwoman first appeared in '56. But if that were the case, why leave all DC's other man/boy teams (Green Arrow/Speedy, Congo Bill/Janu, Tomahawk/Dan) intact? And why add two more (Aquaman/Aqualad, Flash/Kid Flash) later? No, I think Batwoman was added for the same reason Bat-Hound and Bat-Mite were: to emulate Weisinger's successful revitalization of the Superman franchise. Anything more strikes me as an imposition of 21st Century standards on mid-20th Century events. Cei-U! I summon my two cents' worth! I agree and I think you're probably right. But putting on the Devil's Advocate hat, it could have been just because Batman & Robin were the ones singled out and were the most prominent. Let's face it, who beyond comics readers ever heard of GA/Speedy, Congo Bill/Janu, etc? And the others may have been added after the hubbub died down. Just another possibility. |
|
|
|
Post by Phil Maurice on Jan 7, 2016 18:03:59 GMT -5
I summon my two cents' worth! And it's much appreciated! I've seen the rumor posited many times, but always in the manner of Mecha's Wiki quote, that it has been "suggested" by "scholars" to be true. Here on the forum, we are fortunate to have IMHO genuine scholars who are trustworthy and interested in discovering the unvarnished truth, even when it is unsavory or, worse, mundane. It's a small matter really, but your thoughtful opinion mirrors my own long-held suspicions, and that settles it for me. Thanks! |
|
|
|
Post by Hoosier X on Jan 7, 2016 18:30:23 GMT -5
The reason Julius Schwartz dropped Bat-Girl and the rest of the Bat-Family characters is simple. The sales on Batman and Detective had been steadily dropping since before the imposition of the Comics Code and were veering dangerously close to cancellation levels. Schwartz was given a mandate: work the magic he'd brought to bear on the revived All-American heroes and jettison all the dead weight the strip had accumulated under Jack Schiff. That "dead weight" included the Bat-Family, which had not resulted in the revitalization of a tired franchise the way Supergirl, Krypto, etc had revitalized the Superman franchise. And though I can't recall the specifics, I *think* Schwartz felt that each spin-off character diluted the impact of Batman himself, a position I tend to agree with despite my considerable love for the Batman Family-themed Annual (the first Batman comic I ever read). This editorial attitude also explains why Schwartz did a similar housecleaning when he took over the Superman books post-Weisinger. Cei-U! I summon the rationale! This is something I've been wondering about for a few years. Were Detective Comics and Batman really near cancellation levels? I suspect that's a bit of hyperbole that somebody like Bob Kane or Carmine Infantino or even Julius Schwartz might have said in an interview that then got picked up and spread around. I can readily believe that Batman sales in general were lower than Superman in general. As much as I love Schiff-era Batman, I can compare the Superman books (with art by Curt Swan and Al Plastino and Kurt Schaffenberger) to the Batman books (with Sheldon Moldoff and others imitating Bob Kane) and I can see how Batman looks very outdated compared to Superman by 1963 and 1964. (Dick Sprang was long gone from Batman and Detective, though he worked on the Superman/Batman team-up stories for quite a while. I'm not sure if he was still drawing them by 1963.) But I'm not sure I can quite as readily believe that Batman and Detective were literally near cancellation. I think it more likely that the sales were soft and somebody at DC thought they could beef them up with a change in direction. It's not quite the same as being near cancellation, but it makes a better story, especially if the ultimate source is somebody in the industry who has an axe to grind or is trying to boost their own role in setting up the Bat-Mania explosion of the later 1960s. I guess what I'm asking is this: Who's the source on the near-cancellation part of the story? Is it an editor or artist on The New Look? Is it an assistant editor who wasn't there repeating what he heard ten or twenty years after the fact? Or is it a researcher who has looked at circulation numbers and wrote an article for Alter Ego? |
|
|
|
Post by Hoosier X on Jan 7, 2016 18:44:00 GMT -5
Cei-U! I got to messing around on the Internet and searching "comic book circulation" and I rediscovered the site Comichron, which publishes circulation data for years when it's available. I used to look at this site from time to time, and I now remember coming across this chart for 1962 sales. I have long been a little dubious of the claim that Batman and Detective were near cancellation levels, but I came across this specific chart and it made me even more suspicious that the claim might be based on exaggeration that's seldom been questioned. Unfortunately, Comichron does not have many of the relevant numbers for 1963 and 1964. No Batman or Superman comics are listed for 1963 and Batman is missing for 1964. The numbers for 1962 show the Superman comics selling very well, but the Batman comics are still among DC's top sellers. If Mecha thinks this is too blatantly off-topic, I would be perfectly willing to move it to the Batman Fan Thread. (Note to anybody poking around on the site: Check out those mind-boggling numbers for The Metal Men! Who knew they were that popular back then?) |
|
|
|
Post by Slam_Bradley on Jan 7, 2016 18:52:01 GMT -5
While both Batman and Detective were selling more than Flash or Green Lantern they were being pummeled by Superman and Action, selling about half what the Super books were selling. Also keep in mind that Bob Kane was getting a piece of the action, meaning those books were bringing in less money. Also those are paid circulation numbers. They don't show what the print-run was for each book so we don't know the sell-through which directly effects the bottom line.
So while they may not have been "cancellation" numbers, they look really bad for the number two character in the stable and it would have made sense to shake things up and try to get the books selling better.
|
|
|
|
Post by Ish Kabbible on Jan 7, 2016 19:16:55 GMT -5
I believe it was Detective rather than the Batman title that was possibly endangered by cancellation. Further proof might be that The Martian Manhunter got booted out to be replaced by Elongated Man to help stimulate sales as well as a Batman make-over. And since House Of Mystery was even lower sales wise, the Manhunter series could have been thought to be of more help there
Ish Kabbible
I summon ever-lasting longings for dear old Zook
|
|
|
|
Post by dupersuper on Jan 8, 2016 1:19:47 GMT -5
Bibbo Bibbowski - Supporting Character for SupermanFirst appearance: Adventures of Superman #428 (May 1987)  On a Personal Note: I have a copy of this book and it's a rare Bronze Age Purchase because many of my friends recommended me this book because of this character Bibbo. I enjoyed this character and having said that he became an instant hit back in the 80's. I read several of his adventures because my friends brought me Superman Comic Books while I was working and literally mailing them to my home so that I don't miss it at all. So, I ended up having a stack of them and never looked back. From WikipediaBibbo first appears in a Suicide Slum bar called the Ace o' Clubs. When Superman comes in looking for information, Bibbo, thinking this is "some clown in a Superman suit", punches Superman, damaging his hand. He gains respect for the Man of Steel because "yer tough". He would later refer to Superman as his "fav'rit" hero.Two Pictures of Bo  I find him personal, unique, fun-loving, supported, and most of all a human being that taken great lengths to be Superman's Pal. So, having said that ... a rare Bronze Age Character that made this list as one of the Best Supporting Characters. In Superman Returns Bibbo Bibbowski apparently appears in an early scene in Superman Returns played by Jack Larson (who had portrayed Jimmy Olsen in the 1950s Adventures of Superman). Post-Crisis is still bronze age? Also, Bibbo appeared in the Superman Adventures cartoon. He may have also been in an episode of Lois&Clark...and, though he doesn't appear, the Ace O' Clubs appears on Smallville (though it's a fancy restaurant/club, not a dingy pub). |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2016 3:33:10 GMT -5
Dupersuper - I need time to think about it. Your questions here on page 5.
|
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2016 3:57:11 GMT -5
Cat Grant - Supporting Character for Superman / Supergirl First appearance: Adventures of Superman #424 (January 1987)  On a Personal Note:Honestly, I really don't pay attention to this character and having said that I did not read much of her in Comic Books and having said that I truly feel bad about it. For what my friends said about her is that she provided Clark Kent another Love Interest and primarily making Clark to think twice about Lois. I know the character well in Lois and Clark and Smallville but to me, they were pretty much as a filler to make the show interesting but I really feel ... I will explain that later. From WikipediaCatherine Jane "Cat" Grant is a fictional character appearing in American comic books published by DC Comics, commonly in association with Superman. Created by writer [Marv Wolfman] and artist Jerry Ordway, the character first appeared in Adventures of Superman #424 (January 1987) as a gossip columnist for the Daily Planet. Introduced as a potential love interest for Clark Kent, her character added a new dimension to the Clark/Lois Lane/Superman dynamic.Two Pictures of Cat Grant The above picture is a picture of Cat Grant that I hardly knew about and this showcase her as a more sensible character and not a sexy one shown below. I wished that I read more about this version than the one pictured below.  The picture above you is one that I seen the most and having said that I had mixed feelings about this character but DC Comics made her more like a bimbo and therefore my interest in this character gotten on the wayside and never looked back. Cat Grant is a prominent character in Clark Kent / Superman life that I feel was being mishandled in the world of Comics.
|
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2016 4:21:09 GMT -5
Three Cat Grants in Television HistoryLois and Clark the New Adventures of Superman - Tracy Scoggins  She was on Season 1 and it's bothers me why she did not used in the previous seasons and it's bothers me so much and she added a dimension to this show and that's why I picked Cat Grant because of her appearance on Lois and Clark - The New Adventures of Superman. From Wikipedia
In Lois & Clark: The New Adventures of Superman, Cat Grant was featured in her early role as the Daily Planet gossip columnist with an interest in Clark Kent. She was played by Tracy Scoggins. Cat was portrayed as a shameless man-chaser, who tried to seduce Clark Kent very often - to the point that she once tried to convince him that they were involved when he was suffering from amnesia - and usually dressed in provocative attire. Scoggins was a regular cast member during season one, but the character was dropped for the remainder of the series, without explanation. Personal Note
That's bothers me a lot and I just find a decent answer why this character wasn't used in Season 2 and beyond. It's baffles me today. I have no answers for this. Smallville - Keri Lynn Pratt No Stars - I did not even paid much attention to this character when they had her in Smallville. Heck, it's did not even registered with me and having said that I'm dumbfounded that they had her on that Show. Supergirl - Calista Flockhart
  Great Potential and to me, was taken by surprise how well she did on that show and that's why she is the best of the three. If Supergirl picks up a 2nd and even a 3rd season - Calista Flockhart will put a stamp on Cat Grant Character for years to come. Former Ally McBeal Star is getting my attention now and I hope this Show succeed.
|
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2016 4:23:53 GMT -5
Cei-U! If Mecha thinks this is too blatantly off-topic, I would be perfectly willing to move it to the Batman Fan Thread. Not at all, I consider it an item that's needs to be discussed and don't feel bad about it. I'm glad that it's being discussed here on my thread. I have no problems with this. |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2016 12:17:42 GMT -5
Etta Candy - Supporting Character of Wonder WomanFirst appearance:(Historical) Sensation Comics #2 (Feb. 1942) (Modern) Wonder Woman #2 Historical and Modern Adaptations  On a Personal NoteThis character has so many changes over a great period of time it's baffles me today of the turnaround of this character that is a supporting character of Wonder Woman. I had to admit that I have mixed feelings about her and the only time that I really knew this character is from Wonder Woman during the early days of the Golden Age of Comics. I also knew her when at one time she was a Lieutenant in the Air Force and that came to me as a surprise #1. Surprise #2 is when she became an Agent of some sort of which she approach situations that were required making good decision and she has to be assertive about it. Before I begin with three characters adaptations of Etta Candy - Let's talk about Beatrice (pictured below) Colen first and I wanted to say this I was sad to see that she did not appear in 2nd and 3rd Seasons of Wonder Woman and I thought she did a great job on the World War Two Version in the 1st Season of Wonder Woman  
Beatrice Colen is one of my favorite television actress and I've enjoyed her in variety of roles that she appeared. She is very underrated in my own opinion.
|
|
