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Post by Roquefort Raider on Oct 16, 2020 8:24:09 GMT -5
Haha. Don't get me wrong, She is stunning and played the part well. She just didn't look like she had ever lifted anything heavy before. I've said this before but I think they should do like the old days and look for athletes to cast for some of these parts that require physically impressive types to play them convincingly, just as back in the 1920s or 30s they got Johnny Weismuller to play Tarzan or Buster Crabbe to play Flash Gordon. When it comes to certain super-heroes, I couldn't agree more. Thespian abilities are one thing, but I don't insist on Laurence Olivier- or Judy Dench-level of acting for an action film; "honest performance" is quite all right with me. On the other hand, having anyone but an actual martial artist play Iron Fist was a major error. Furthermore, whenever I see gymnasts and parkour stars climb up and down impossible obstacles as if it were the easiest thing in the world, I can't help but think how lousy and cheap the CGI performances of our movie superheroes look. Katelyn Ohashi wows me far more with her real-world routines than do any of our costumed heroes, even if they benefit from the best SFX technology!
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Post by impulse on Oct 16, 2020 8:31:48 GMT -5
I don't think finding an actor with twenty more pounds of muscle is going to make the act of lifting a bus over your head look any more believable. (I'm assuming WW performs some super-heroish feats of strength in the movie). I do like the idea of finding (non-'roided) athletic figures for these roles, but super-hero strength is basically magic, so it's not that disconcerting for me if they don't give these roles to athletic types. No, you're right, there's no way to make it look 100% realistic, but little perceived inconsistencies detract a little from immersion. For an example, space battles in Star Wars would actually be silent, but that would feel really weird in a movie, so we hear lasers and explosions, etc. I'm not looking for an actress to be built like Arnold Schwarzenegger to pull off Wonder Woman, but if she had toned up and at least looked athletic, she would have been more convincing to me as an athlete who has super powered extra strength. Look at Linda Hamilton in Terminator vs. Terminator 2 as an example of how the same person can come off very differently.
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Oct 16, 2020 8:42:34 GMT -5
And that's absolutely what some people don't get or are intentionally feigning ignorance when it comes to representation. It's no more the studio's responsibility to do so than it is Marvel to write more Warlock comics because I'm a fan. They do what brings in the profits. Also Monica Bellucci ..... Bram's Stoker's Dracula ..... Who's talking about responsibility? I'm talking about what I'd like to see, not what's commercially optimal. Besides, Gadot herself was a relative unknown when she was first cast as WW, so that argument isn't necessarily decisive. Imagine if every new novel, in order to be published, had to contain some already established fictional character because publishers thought that would be likely to push sales up. No new horror novel would hit the shelves unless it featured favourite at least one famous horror icon like Dracula or Dr. Frankenstein. Wouldn't that be wonderful! Well maybe not, but we would no doubt accept it willingly because after all, the publishers have to maximise profits.
I know, a silly example, that would never happen ... uh, at least not outside Marvel/DC superhero comics, hopefully. Monica Bellucci in Francis Ford Coppola's Bram Stoker's Dracula (it's worth typing all that out just to highlight how f***ing stupid that title is) was severely under-utilised. Her role should have been expanded - they could have made room for it by cutting that ridiculous reincarnation love story with Mina.
To start, I wanted to relay that I didn't intend for my two posts on this subject to sound as if I was accusing anyone of saying that in this conversation. That was a in general statement conveying sentiments I have noticed in other conversations I have had on the subject. It's not that nothing new can come out without already established characters, it's just that, that is what sells. This is why since say, Star Wars, the trilogy formula for franchises has become a staple in movies. Remakes of older movies and shows sell. People do read/watch unknown stuff. How many people know what Mario Acavedo writes? (Great books. Maybe not everyone's cup of tea, but I am glad I stumbled upon them.) Charles Bukowski tried for years to get his writings published and only received his fame in his twilight years after working his entire life to do so. But then I think Hollywood works on a different formula than most other fictional art. I totally agree with you on Dracula. From that scene alone how it went from erotica to horror like *snap* that was perfect. But yes the brides were way under utilised in that movie, and the two most boring characters John and Mina got way more screen time than many of the supporting characters that were way more interesting. Don't get me wrong, it's one of my favorite portrayals of Stoker's book. But thinking too much about what it could have been makes me like what it is a lot less lol
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2020 9:06:01 GMT -5
I don't think finding an actor with twenty more pounds of muscle is going to make the act of lifting a bus over your head look any more believable. (I'm assuming WW performs some super-heroish feats of strength in the movie). I do like the idea of finding (non-'roided) athletic figures for these roles, but super-hero strength is basically magic, so it's not that disconcerting for me if they don't give these roles to athletic types. No, you're right, there's no way to make it look 100% realistic, but little perceived inconsistencies detract a little from immersion. For an example, space battles in Star Wars would actually be silent, but that would feel really weird in a movie, so we hear lasers and explosions, etc. I'm not looking for an actress to be built like Arnold Schwarzenegger to pull off Wonder Woman, but if she had toned up and at least looked athletic, she would have been more convincing to me as an athlete who has super powered extra strength. Look at Linda Hamilton in Terminator vs. Terminator 2 as an example of how the same person can come off very differently. Thinking about it a bit more, I'm a hypocrite, because it really irks me that Jonathon Kent is drawn so slim. Good thing I've pretty much given up on DC. I think with live-action entertainment, I'm looking more at acting ability than body type. I'm not overly familiar with modern super-hero movies, but from what I've seen, Chris Evans seems to have been the best casting as far as getting both the character and the body type right. I need to get me one of them Hollywood trainers. Speaking of Star Wars, and reaching back to another topic in this thread, I was under the impression that stormtroopers were clones. At what point would a casual fan have been made aware that not all stormtroopers were clones? Because when the first movie of the current trilogy was released, and the ads showed a stormtrooper taking off his helmet to reveal John Boyega, I did a spit-take. I'm normally one to call BS at accusations of political correctness, but one of the first black guys in Star wars is a clone of a white dude? How silly. I've since learned that they aren't all clones anymore, but give me some set-up before reversing something like that. Maybe there *was* some set-up and I missed it?
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Post by impulse on Oct 16, 2020 10:34:22 GMT -5
Thinking about it a bit more, I'm a hypocrite, because it really irks me that Jonathon Kent is drawn so slim. Good thing I've pretty much given up on DC. I think with live-action entertainment, I'm looking more at acting ability than body type. I'm not overly familiar with modern super-hero movies, but from what I've seen, Chris Evans seems to have been the best casting as far as getting both the character and the body type right. I need to get me one of them Hollywood trainers. I agree that Chris Evans was exceptionally well-cast, but you know he hit the gym pretty hard. I think for me had Gadot hit a similar regimen appropriate for her it would have sold me on it a little more, is all. I am looking up some pictures to make sure I'm not remembering wrong, but yeah, her arms and legs are really lean. No definition or build to see. Also, good lord... she's gorgeous, almost distractingly so from everything else, so hey, maybe it doesn't matter after all! IIRC, in the original trilogy no one ever said they were clones, and obviously the actors were different heights etc. Them all being clones I thought was a construct of the prequels with the Clone wars. To your point, they did not explicitly say they stopped only using clones in the sequel trilogy that I remember, but I just interpreted that of course it wasn't. It was 30 years after the fall of the empire, so they likely didn't have access to the cloning stuff anymore and had to recruit natural born humans. That was my assumption anyway. If anyone knows the official word that contradicts this, I will happily stand corrected.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Oct 16, 2020 10:54:43 GMT -5
No, you're right, there's no way to make it look 100% realistic, but little perceived inconsistencies detract a little from immersion. For an example, space battles in Star Wars would actually be silent, but that would feel really weird in a movie, so we hear lasers and explosions, etc. I'm not looking for an actress to be built like Arnold Schwarzenegger to pull off Wonder Woman, but if she had toned up and at least looked athletic, she would have been more convincing to me as an athlete who has super powered extra strength. Look at Linda Hamilton in Terminator vs. Terminator 2 as an example of how the same person can come off very differently. Thinking about it a bit more, I'm a hypocrite, because it really irks me that Jonathon Kent is drawn so slim. Good thing I've pretty much given up on DC. I think with live-action entertainment, I'm looking more at acting ability than body type. I'm not overly familiar with modern super-hero movies, but from what I've seen, Chris Evans seems to have been the best casting as far as getting both the character and the body type right. I need to get me one of them Hollywood trainers. Speaking of Star Wars, and reaching back to another topic in this thread, I was under the impression that stormtroopers were clones. At what point would a casual fan have been made aware that not all stormtroopers were clones? Because when the first movie of the current trilogy was released, and the ads showed a stormtrooper taking off his helmet to reveal John Boyega, I did a spit-take. I'm normally one to call BS at accusations of political correctness, but one of the first black guys in Star wars is a clone of a white dude? How silly. I've since learned that they aren't all clones anymore, but give me some set-up before reversing something like that. Maybe there *was* some set-up and I missed it? Well, stormtroopers being clones was a concept introduced in the prequels. They weren't clones in the original trilogy (not the same voice, not the same height) nor in expanded material like the Marvel Star Wars comic. My guess is that after the clone wars, the empire stopped buying clones from Camino and resorted to enlisting regular people; it's cheaper, it provides employment, and it helps with popular indoctrination. Seeing Fyn remove his helmet, my own reaction was "ah, things are back to normal".
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2020 11:29:19 GMT -5
Thinking about it a bit more, I'm a hypocrite, because it really irks me that Jonathon Kent is drawn so slim. Good thing I've pretty much given up on DC. I think with live-action entertainment, I'm looking more at acting ability than body type. I'm not overly familiar with modern super-hero movies, but from what I've seen, Chris Evans seems to have been the best casting as far as getting both the character and the body type right. I need to get me one of them Hollywood trainers. Speaking of Star Wars, and reaching back to another topic in this thread, I was under the impression that stormtroopers were clones. At what point would a casual fan have been made aware that not all stormtroopers were clones? Because when the first movie of the current trilogy was released, and the ads showed a stormtrooper taking off his helmet to reveal John Boyega, I did a spit-take. I'm normally one to call BS at accusations of political correctness, but one of the first black guys in Star wars is a clone of a white dude? How silly. I've since learned that they aren't all clones anymore, but give me some set-up before reversing something like that. Maybe there *was* some set-up and I missed it? Well, stormtroopers being clones was a concept introduced in the prequels. They weren't clones in the original trilogy (not the same voice, not the same height) nor in expanded material like the Marvel Star Wars comic. My guess is that after the clone wars, the empire stopped buying clones from Camino and resorted to enlisting regular people; it's cheaper, it provides employment, and it helps with popular indoctrination. Seeing Fyn remove his helmet, my own reaction was "ah, things are back to normal". I realize Lucas didn't intend for them to be clones originally, but I cut retcons some slack, and watching the original trilogy, it doesn't take too much suspension of disbelief to pretend they are all the same size and have the same voice (also, genotype != phenotype. different training for different troopers could account for some minor variations). In fact, when the clone idea was introduced later, it didn't even occur to me to mentally compare any differences between individual stormtroopers in the OT. Plus, cloning could explain why they all have the same lousy aim (some neurological disorder that makes targeting nigh impossible). So in the late '90s (early 2000s?), the new canon was that stormtroopers are clones, until told otherwise. I'm also fine with the fact that "otherwise" eventually happened, it's just that my introduction to it was jarring, and at the time, seemed like the writers didn't give a damn about getting basic facts right. The biggest direct contrary point I know of to all troopers being clones is that in the radio adaptation of a New Hope, there is an ad playing in the background in a Tattooine bar which is recruiting for the Imperial navy. Presumably, most of these recruits would end up as stormtroopers.
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Post by Batflunkie on Oct 16, 2020 13:19:11 GMT -5
My guess is that after the clone wars, the empire stopped buying clones from Camino and resorted to enlisting regular people; it's cheaper, it provides employment, and it helps with popular indoctrination. If you have enough money to build two death stars, you have enough money for clones
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Oct 16, 2020 13:28:58 GMT -5
My guess is that after the clone wars, the empire stopped buying clones from Camino and resorted to enlisting regular people; it's cheaper, it provides employment, and it helps with popular indoctrination. If you have enough money to build two death stars, you have enough money for clones Perhaps he needed to divert money from the clone armies to fund the Death Stars? They don't last, and the warranty is crap despite obvious design flaws.
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,221
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Post by Confessor on Oct 16, 2020 14:02:30 GMT -5
Thinking about it a bit more, I'm a hypocrite, because it really irks me that Jonathon Kent is drawn so slim. Good thing I've pretty much given up on DC. I think with live-action entertainment, I'm looking more at acting ability than body type. I'm not overly familiar with modern super-hero movies, but from what I've seen, Chris Evans seems to have been the best casting as far as getting both the character and the body type right. I need to get me one of them Hollywood trainers. Speaking of Star Wars, and reaching back to another topic in this thread, I was under the impression that stormtroopers were clones. At what point would a casual fan have been made aware that not all stormtroopers were clones? Because when the first movie of the current trilogy was released, and the ads showed a stormtrooper taking off his helmet to reveal John Boyega, I did a spit-take. I'm normally one to call BS at accusations of political correctness, but one of the first black guys in Star wars is a clone of a white dude? How silly. I've since learned that they aren't all clones anymore, but give me some set-up before reversing something like that. Maybe there *was* some set-up and I missed it? Well, stormtroopers being clones was a concept introduced in the prequels. They weren't clones in the original trilogy (not the same voice, not the same height) nor in expanded material like the Marvel Star Wars comic. My guess is that after the clone wars, the empire stopped buying clones from Camino and resorted to enlisting regular people; it's cheaper, it provides employment, and it helps with popular indoctrination. Seeing Fyn remove his helmet, my own reaction was "ah, things are back to normal". The idea that at least some stormtroopers (at the time of the OT) were clones predates the prequels by a long way. I'm not sure where this idea originated, but I was aware of it in the late '80s, I believe. It may even have been mentioned in a novelization or something. Anyway, the idea of stormtroopers as clones certainly didn't originate with the prequels. Edit: So yeah, I just pulled out volume 2 of the Star Wars Technical Journals published by Starlog magazine in 1994, just because it's on the bookshelf nearest me. Sure enough, under the entry for stormtroopers, it states that rumours persist that some or all Stormtroopers are grown in a laboratory as clones with accelerated aging. But personally, I recall that this was "common knowledge" (at least, if you were a huge SW nerd like I was) earlier than that.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Oct 16, 2020 14:32:40 GMT -5
Well, stormtroopers being clones was a concept introduced in the prequels. They weren't clones in the original trilogy (not the same voice, not the same height) nor in expanded material like the Marvel Star Wars comic. My guess is that after the clone wars, the empire stopped buying clones from Camino and resorted to enlisting regular people; it's cheaper, it provides employment, and it helps with popular indoctrination. Seeing Fyn remove his helmet, my own reaction was "ah, things are back to normal". The idea that at least some stormtroopers (at the time of the OT) were clones predates the prequels by a long way. I'm not sure where this idea originated, but I was aware of it in the late '80s, I believe. It may even have been mentioned in a novelization or something. Anyway, the idea of stormtroopers as clones certainly didn't originate with the prequels. Edit: So yeah, I just pulled out volume 2 of the Star Wars Technical Journals published by Starlog magazine in 1994, just because it's on the bookshelf nearest me. Sure enough, under the entry for stormtroopers, it states that rumours persist that some or all Stormtroopers are grown in a laboratory as clones with accelerated aging. But personally, I recall that this was "common knowledge" (at least, if you were a huge SW nerd like I was) earlier than that. I did come across old Starlog (or more probably Fantastic Films) articles that mentioned the concept of stormroopers as clones, but it was by no means made to sound canonical. Those were the same articles that, prior to Return of the Jedi, would say that Bobba Fett might have been Luke's father or that Obi-Wan himself might have been a clone (O.B.-1). I got the impression that the cloned troopers was one of the concepts that was toyed with by Lucas with and then not used, and even thought it interesting to see the idea resurrected for the prequels. It was however clear to me, as an old fan, that while the Camino troopers were clones they had had to be replaced by regular folks before the original trilogy began. Maybe that opinion had been tainted by the stormtroopers in the comics, since the Marvel series was "my" Star Wars outside of the original three movies, and that those dudes were definitely not clones.
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Post by Batflunkie on Oct 16, 2020 16:50:42 GMT -5
The idea that at least some stormtroopers (at the time of the OT) were clones predates the prequels by a long way. But what sense does that make? Why would you make half of your army clones and then half of them not? Unless the clones are the guys that serve under Palpatine
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Post by Duragizer on Oct 16, 2020 17:43:36 GMT -5
Conscripts = cannon fodder. Clones = special forces.
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,221
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Post by Confessor on Oct 16, 2020 18:02:05 GMT -5
The idea that at least some stormtroopers (at the time of the OT) were clones predates the prequels by a long way. I'm not sure where this idea originated, but I was aware of it in the late '80s, I believe. It may even have been mentioned in a novelization or something. Anyway, the idea of stormtroopers as clones certainly didn't originate with the prequels. Edit: So yeah, I just pulled out volume 2 of the Star Wars Technical Journals published by Starlog magazine in 1994, just because it's on the bookshelf nearest me. Sure enough, under the entry for stormtroopers, it states that rumours persist that some or all Stormtroopers are grown in a laboratory as clones with accelerated aging. But personally, I recall that this was "common knowledge" (at least, if you were a huge SW nerd like I was) earlier than that. I did come across old Starlog (or more probably Fantastic Films) articles that mentioned the concept of stormroopers as clones, but it was by no means made to sound canonical. Those were the same articles that, prior to Return of the Jedi, would say that Bobba Fett might have been Luke's father or that Obi-Wan himself might have been a clone (O.B.-1). I got the impression that the cloned troopers was one of the concepts that was toyed with by Lucas with and then not used, and even thought it interesting to see the idea resurrected for the prequels. It was however clear to me, as an old fan, that while the Camino troopers were clones they had had to be replaced by regular folks before the original trilogy began. Maybe that opinion had been tainted by the stormtroopers in the comics, since the Marvel series was "my" Star Wars outside of the original three movies, and that those dudes were definitely not clones. Well, the SW Technical Journals weren't made up of various sci-fi journalist's theories or guess work. They were an attempt to gather together all of the canonical information about the SW Universe as it existed in the early '90s (and I mean "canonical" in all its levels: films, novelisations, radio dramas, novels, West End Games RPG supliments, and comics, in roughly that order of canonicity). My memory is that I already knew about the Stormtrooper/clones thing earlier than that though. My guess is that it was probably mentioned in one of the '80s novels or film novelisations, or maybe even in the SW fanclub newsletter Batha Tracks or in the Lucasfilm Star Wars Insider magazine. I mean, it clearly wasn't in the films, but it was something that was mentioned in official, Lucasfilm-approved literature by at least the early '90s, and I recall it being "known" in the late '80s. Wish I could remember where I first encountered it. EditRoquefort Raider -- this was bugging me, so I did a quick bit of online research. Apparently, the very first mention of Stormtroopers being clones was in issue #4 of the officially licensed Star Wars Poster Monthly magazine in 1978. I found scans of the magazine online at starwars.com and, sure enough, in an article titled "Soldiers of the Empire", it states that all Stormtroopers are clones. Now, clearly this was modified in other sources later on in the '80s and it became a case of only some Stormtroopers being clones (which is how I first learned this piece of then-obscure SW lore), but the fact that Stormtroopers were being referred to as clones in a Lucasfilm-sanctioned poster magazine as early 1978 shows that this idea had been rattling around in George Lucas's head and in the public domain a long time prior to 2002's Attack of the Clones. The idea that at least some stormtroopers (at the time of the OT) were clones predates the prequels by a long way. But what sense does that make? Why would you make half of your army clones and then half of them not? Unless the clones are the guys that serve under Palpatine I don't know, but I think that the idea was that initially, way back when, all or most of the troopers were clones. But over time that changed and ordinary humans filled the ranks. Which is pretty much in line with what we saw in the prequels and sequel trilogy.
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Post by Calidore on Oct 16, 2020 18:49:21 GMT -5
Re. Gal Gadot's perceived lack of physicality: She spent two years as a combat fitness trainer in the Israeli Defense Forces, did some of her own stunts in the Fast & Furious movies she appeared in, and underwent a heavy training regimen for Wonder Woman (and IMO looks it). Opinions of her acting, charisma, etc. are subjective, but her physical suitability for the role is pretty apparent. Thin can still be buff.
Funny example of passing on realism: On the commentary track for The Abyss, James Cameron said that the characters really should all have been speaking in helium voices, but he thought that would undercut the drama. I've never been able to not hear that whenever I watch the movie now.
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