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Post by Trevor on Feb 2, 2016 10:27:43 GMT -5
I don't read a lot of Batman, but haven't a lot of his storylines the last 10 years or so been about him failing? You mean after he single-handedly takes down the entire Justice League and faces Darksseid one-on-one? Must be a different character then... -M Wow. Well, like I said, I haven't read much Batman since 1990. I was just remembering what seemed like big storylines of him being paralyzed and out of action, losing a Robin or two, being MIA for the last year, etc |
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Post by Randle-El on Feb 2, 2016 11:00:11 GMT -5
The other thing about these over-powered characters is that most of their stories tend to be all about how superior they are, which gets old pretty fast. And other characters tend to be written poorly in order make the hero look better. Except that's every Batman story written since the 1980s too it seems, and even though he has no powers, he is more unbeatable than those who wield god-like powers, but somehow he's relatable because he has no powers, except being a billionaire able to do anything because he trained hard when he was a youth. No matter how powerful you are, Batman is superior....talk about getting old real fast. -M Sometimes I wonder if the writers responsible for characterizing him this way have done it as a a sort of overcompensation to justify his membership in the Justice League among the likes of Superman, Wonder Woman, the Flash, Green Lantern, etc. He really shouldn't be on such a team, but they massively inflate his cunning/intellect/preparedness to give him parity with the others to the point that it's just as outlandish as any other superpower. |
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Post by chadwilliam on Feb 2, 2016 12:04:27 GMT -5
Except that's every Batman story written since the 1980s too it seems, and even though he has no powers, he is more unbeatable than those who wield god-like powers, but somehow he's relatable because he has no powers, except being a billionaire able to do anything because he trained hard when he was a youth. No matter how powerful you are, Batman is superior....talk about getting old real fast. -M Sometimes I wonder if the writers responsible for characterizing him this way have done it as a a sort of overcompensation to justify his membership in the Justice League among the likes of Superman, Wonder Woman, the Flash, Green Lantern, etc. He really shouldn't be on such a team, but they massively inflate his cunning/intellect/preparedness to give him parity with the others to the point that it's just as outlandish as any other superpower. The problem with Batman being on equal footing with someone like Superman is that to achieve parity - or even something close to it - it isn't enough to simply present Batman as a master fighter/thinker/scientist/etc, you have also have to portray Superman as someone who in spite of his strength/speed/invulnerability is so ineffectual that the nearly infinite biological head start he has over his opponent becomes meaningless. That Batman is able to narrow that gap to the extent that fans actually debate who would win in a fight is testament to how badly Superman has been portrayed in the past few decades.
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Post by berkley on Feb 2, 2016 13:39:54 GMT -5
The other thing about these over-powered characters is that most of their stories tend to be all about how superior they are, which gets old pretty fast. And other characters tend to be written poorly in order make the hero look better. Except that's every Batman story written since the 1980s too it seems, and even though he has no powers, he is more unbeatable than those who wield god-like powers, but somehow he's relatable because he has no powers, except being a billionaire able to do anything because he trained hard when he was a youth. No matter how powerful you are, Batman is superior....talk about getting old real fast. -M I was actually thinking specifically of Batman when I typed that - taking "too powerful" in the broadest sense, and not necessarily referring only to those characters like the Hulk or Superman who are supposed to be physically stronger than everyone else. |
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Feb 2, 2016 14:48:31 GMT -5
I'm one of those. Try as I may, I have yet to read a Superman story (where he is the main character) that I like. I just read Superman #9 by Byrne, Kesel et al. Basically, the Joker has a robot disguised as Superman steal a diamond. Superman "senses" this happening thanks to his super sense (he hears the alarm). He gets there, discovers inside the robot there is an atom bomb so what does he do? Flies it up to space where there is a huge explosion. Does he die? Of course not silly its Superman, only a green rock can kill him. Moving on, he comes back, talks to police, they say "hey, the Joker is behind this" and he flies off, only to see a note from Joker on a balloon that says the Joker has his three closest friends hostage in lead caskets buried throughout the city. Superman can choose to chase the Joker or save his friends. In reality, the Joker does have Lois, Jimmy and someone else but they are fine and he is taking them elsewhere. He seems poised to escape when Superman lifts up the truck, carries him to prison and its the end. He finishes by explaining that while he cannot see through lead, the lead coffins that his friends were supposedly buried in still stood out so he found them real quick, determined they were empty and then somehow found the Joker. Magically. Or perhaps because of some radar watch Jimmy has which he alludes to earlier but does not admit that is how he found the Joker. It's stupid. No real conflict. You never get great action. You get a god-like being who makes a cool villain look and act stupid. Aside from decent artwork, it's garbage IMO. I love the cover, I love the panels with the close up on Joker's face. But in terms of the character (and this holds true for the limited stories I have read) is just so repetitive. Superman confronts a few problems, uses powers he has and some he may never have before but of course he has because he is Superman and he wins. The end. With Marvel and others, you get the impression that they could lose. You know deep down the hero won't but the hero still can die. If Spider-man gets shot, he is dead. If Daredevil gets hit by a bus, he is dead. Maybe it is Kent that brings Superman down for me. His alter ego is very limited and one dimensional too. That and his "disguise" is silly. No one in their right mind would be like "hey he has glasses, there is no way this hulking man is Superman even though he is a dead-ringer". Granted it is also unlikely someone like Spidey could keep his ID secret forever but the fact that there is a challenge and the stories show him balancing that with his fighting. The fact that he interacts while fighting and it is not simply a matter of picking up the hero, carrying them to prison and ending the fight. Trust me, I want to like Superman. But like the Hulk, the limited and repetitive nature of the stories has turned me off. I will only collect issues where the artwork is particularly interesting, and even then I would rather spend my money on other heroes. I think that in a good Superman story the conflict should be at least as much emotional/moral as physical. And, historically, the DC characters have been more intellectual and science fiction based than their Marvel counterparts, who are more about soap opera and punching (because of being created/drawn by Kirby.) I reallly like Superman and one of the reasons is that he's capable of working in a wide range of story types - from space based science fiction to sit-com humor to investigative journalism - rather than "Panel 1: The bad guy punches Superman. Panel 2: Superman punches the bad guy." And that makes up for his deficiencies when writers and artists try to fit him into basic, traditional superhero narratives. |
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Post by dupersuper on Feb 3, 2016 4:00:04 GMT -5
One topic that I've seen come up fairly often among causal comic book readers is the idea that a superhero/heroine with an all encompassing powerset equal to that of a god (like Superman for instance) is boring and is therefor unrelatable. Thoughts on this? Personally I find characters that are comparable to gods (like Dr. Solar, Firestorm, and Captain Atom) intriguing because they're still human and can err just as much we can I'm with you. "Too powerful" baffles me as a complaint about superheroes. |
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Post by chadwilliam on Feb 3, 2016 12:42:27 GMT -5
I reallly like Superman and one of the reasons is that he's capable of working in a wide range of story types - from space based science fiction to sit-com humor to investigative journalism
One of the complaints I used to hear about Superman was that he had a really limited Rogues Gallery - beyond Luthor and Brainiac, things get pretty sparse for the guy. In fact, your comment about the "wide range of story types" is I think due to the complexity of what is a pretty full collection of solid and variable enemies. You want humour? You have Bizarro. Surrealism? Mxyzptlk. Sci-Fi? Brainiac. Mindless punching? Doomsday. And anything with Luthor should be epic in nature.
Thinking about it now, I realize that a significant chunk of Superman's greatest foes made their debut at the same time that his power levels skyrocketed. Brainiac, Metallo, Titano, the Parasite, Bizarro all seemed to show up in response to a realization that with an all-powerful Superman, DC was going to have to up the ante on those he faced. And yet, the everyday gangsters he matched wits with didn't go anywhere either. They just became smarter. Stories involving bad guys knowing how to manipulate the legal system so that they could do their thing while technically operating within the law forced Superman to use his wits more often; going after employees of the Daily Planet and either forcing them to do their dirty work for them (such as hypnotizing Clark Kent into killing Superman) or using trickery to achieve the same ends often had Superman fighting for his life without even realizing it.
The human interest tales also shone at this time. Superman's too powerful? Well, of course he is and that explains why a blind little girl doesn't believe he exists. Being all-powerful doesn't make you immune to the problems of a child who has grown cynical to life at such an early age.
Sure he could spend his time smashing planets, but that doesn't mean there are still more important and down to Earth issues to address. When the effects of Red Kryptonite eventually wear off following one adventure, Superman finds himself locked up in a mental hospital with the doctors and guards believing he isn't who he claims to be. Rather than hamper him however, Superman's unlimited abilities only enable him to deal with one of the guards who's been mistreating the patients in a nearly infinite number of ways.
In short, I think the stronger you make Superman, the stronger his enemies, his adventures, and the stakes he's up against.
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Post by DE Sinclair on Feb 3, 2016 14:33:26 GMT -5
One of the pitfalls of making the heroes too powerful is the tendency to give them stupid weaknesses to compensate so the writer doesn't have to work so hard to come up with an opponent. Alien with god-like powers? Give them a green glowing rock that can kill them, but no one else. Different god-like alien? Let's use fire this time. Magic wish-fulfillment device? How about it won't work on one particular color? Ok, what about this wonderful uber-powerful woman? Um, let's go with magic jewelry bondage.
A lot of the time it wasn't that the characters were too powerful, it was that the writers didn't try very hard to come up with worthy opponents. After all this was just disposable crap for little kids.
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Post by Batflunkie on Feb 3, 2016 16:28:19 GMT -5
Superman being weak against magic also made no sense to me
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2016 18:27:38 GMT -5
Superman being weak against magic also made no sense to me Is there a reason why he should be impervious to it? Magic isn't always a tangible force. |
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Post by Batflunkie on Feb 3, 2016 18:38:15 GMT -5
Superman being weak against magic also made no sense to me Is there a reason why he should be impervious to it? Magic isn't always a tangible force. I'm not entirely sure, even the diehards at comicvine seem to be grasping at straws in regards to it |
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Post by Nowhere Man on Feb 3, 2016 20:23:10 GMT -5
Superman is interesting primarily as a parable for absolute power not corrupting absolutely. I think that's often lost nowadays with the focus on cinematic fist fights. I also think Superman: The Movie got it right; Clark is far more interesting with a sense of humor.
You also have to take into account that really powerful characters like Superman, Silver Surfer, Thor, etc, are great vehicles for illustrating are natural desire for wonder and exploration. I think we lost that when the Space Race died down, but I see it ramping back up lately with the talk of Mars colonies and various recent discoveries.
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Post by Icctrombone on Feb 3, 2016 22:06:21 GMT -5
I reallly like Superman and one of the reasons is that he's capable of working in a wide range of story types - from space based science fiction to sit-com humor to investigative journalism
One of the complaints I used to hear about Superman was that he had a really limited Rogues Gallery - beyond Luthor and Brainiac, things get pretty sparse for the guy. In fact, your comment about the "wide range of story types" is I think due to the complexity of what is a pretty full collection of solid and variable enemies. You want humour? You have Bizarro. Surrealism? Mxyzptlk. Sci-Fi? Brainiac. Mindless punching? Doomsday. And anything with Luthor should be epic in nature.
Thinking about it now, I realize that a significant chunk of Superman's greatest foes made their debut at the same time that his power levels skyrocketed. Brainiac, Metallo, Titano, the Parasite, Bizarro all seemed to show up in response to a realization that with an all-powerful Superman, DC was going to have to up the ante on those he faced. And yet, the everyday gangsters he matched wits with didn't go anywhere either. They just became smarter. Stories involving bad guys knowing how to manipulate the legal system so that they could do their thing while technically operating within the law forced Superman to use his wits more often; going after employees of the Daily Planet and either forcing them to do their dirty work for them (such as hypnotizing Clark Kent into killing Superman) or using trickery to achieve the same ends often had Superman fighting for his life without even realizing it.
The human interest tales also shone at this time. Superman's too powerful? Well, of course he is and that explains why a blind little girl doesn't believe he exists. Being all-powerful doesn't make you immune to the problems of a child who has grown cynical to life at such an early age.
Sure he could spend his time smashing planets, but that doesn't mean there are still more important and down to Earth issues to address. When the effects of Red Kryptonite eventually wear off following one adventure, Superman finds himself locked up in a mental hospital with the doctors and guards believing he isn't who he claims to be. Rather than hamper him however, Superman's unlimited abilities only enable him to deal with one of the guards who's been mistreating the patients in a nearly infinite number of ways.
In short, I think the stronger you make Superman, the stronger his enemies, his adventures, and the stakes he's up against.
Awesome post. |
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Post by chadwilliam on Feb 3, 2016 23:32:03 GMT -5
Superman being weak against magic also made no sense to me Is there a reason why he should be impervious to it? Magic isn't always a tangible force.
Ultimate Jezebel is right.
It isn't that magic is like kryptonite to Superman - it's just that there's no reason for him to be immune to it. It's sort of like asking "If Superman's Superman, how can we see him? Shouldn't he be impervious to light?" Well, no. A magician doing card tricks isn't going to make him double over in pain, but if a Sorcerer has the power to, I don't know, turn people into cabbages, Superman's super-strength/speed/ventriloquism/resistance to disease/etc isn't going to protect him.
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Post by chadwilliam on Feb 3, 2016 23:32:20 GMT -5
One of the complaints I used to hear about Superman was that he had a really limited Rogues Gallery - beyond Luthor and Brainiac, things get pretty sparse for the guy. In fact, your comment about the "wide range of story types" is I think due to the complexity of what is a pretty full collection of solid and variable enemies. You want humour? You have Bizarro. Surrealism? Mxyzptlk. Sci-Fi? Brainiac. Mindless punching? Doomsday. And anything with Luthor should be epic in nature.
Thinking about it now, I realize that a significant chunk of Superman's greatest foes made their debut at the same time that his power levels skyrocketed. Brainiac, Metallo, Titano, the Parasite, Bizarro all seemed to show up in response to a realization that with an all-powerful Superman, DC was going to have to up the ante on those he faced. And yet, the everyday gangsters he matched wits with didn't go anywhere either. They just became smarter. Stories involving bad guys knowing how to manipulate the legal system so that they could do their thing while technically operating within the law forced Superman to use his wits more often; going after employees of the Daily Planet and either forcing them to do their dirty work for them (such as hypnotizing Clark Kent into killing Superman) or using trickery to achieve the same ends often had Superman fighting for his life without even realizing it.
The human interest tales also shone at this time. Superman's too powerful? Well, of course he is and that explains why a blind little girl doesn't believe he exists. Being all-powerful doesn't make you immune to the problems of a child who has grown cynical to life at such an early age.
Sure he could spend his time smashing planets, but that doesn't mean there are still more important and down to Earth issues to address. When the effects of Red Kryptonite eventually wear off following one adventure, Superman finds himself locked up in a mental hospital with the doctors and guards believing he isn't who he claims to be. Rather than hamper him however, Superman's unlimited abilities only enable him to deal with one of the guards who's been mistreating the patients in a nearly infinite number of ways.
In short, I think the stronger you make Superman, the stronger his enemies, his adventures, and the stakes he's up against.
Awesome post. Thanks! |
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