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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2017 14:32:41 GMT -5
I'm not looking for a victory, I am looking to understand why you like the books and why you think they are good comics. The standards I used are derived from books on writing fiction, books on writing comics, books on visual storytelling, books on the elements of fiction, textbooks on writing that I contributed to that were used in writing classes, editorial pointers and feedback that received when I was freelancing as to what makes a story good and what they are looking for, etc. It's not just my view of what makes good storytelling, it's the standard I had to learn to be able to work in the storytelling field. You may not agree with the standards, but someone besides me could use them in analysis of a story to determine quality. It's independent of whether I like or dislike the story not subjectively based on my tastes.
If you don't want to continue the discussion, that's fine, as you said no hard feelings, but I just feel there's not much room for discussing comics if the only standard is I like 'em so they're good and I don't like 'em so they're not good.
-M
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Post by Hoosier X on Sept 13, 2017 19:00:56 GMT -5
We'll just have to agree to disagree on the importance of my adoption of an objective standard for comic-book storytelling.
I like the comics that I like. I've never much felt the need to adopt a bunch of rules to help me decide if I like a comic book or not.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2017 0:33:23 GMT -5
To me, I like this thread to see what books you all have been reading and so forth and that's the beauty of this thread.
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Post by Hoosier X on Sept 14, 2017 1:35:25 GMT -5
I've read The Sub-Mariner up to #6. After the disappointing stories in #2 and #3, this series got real good real fast as #4, #5 and #6 have all been some really cool comics! Coming up, the showdown with Destiny in #7 and an epic fight with the Thing in #8!
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Post by Spike-X on Sept 14, 2017 5:55:02 GMT -5
As someone who has actually read post-Ditko Dr. Strange with my own eyes, I will have to respectfully disagree with any general characterization that it was "shite" or "pedestrian." I am reading them with my own eyes (I certainly wouldn't want to abuse anyone else's HEYOOOO!!). Or trying to, anyway. If you like 'em, that's cool.
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Post by Cei-U! on Sept 14, 2017 6:55:46 GMT -5
Quite the feeling of deja vu this AM: the argument of "objective aesthetic standards" vs. "I like it/don't like it = it's good/bad" was one that flared up every three months or so on CBR back in the day. Then, as now, it's one that can't be resolved. It can be debated, but care must be taken to keep personalities out of it. I personally tend to come down more on mrp's side than Hoosier's or Spike's while still understanding and respecting theirs. It can be a tricky tightrope to walk but I manage. Thus I can recognize the inherent quality of, say, Jim Starlin's work without liking it one wit *and* recognize the utter crapitude of creators and series I nonetheless adore.
Cei-U! I summon the early morning ruminations!
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Post by brutalis on Sept 14, 2017 7:47:52 GMT -5
The eternal combative question of what is good versus what is bad in comics. There are just some subjects that are argumentative with no real correct answer. I avoid politics, religion and good/bad discussions as much as possible. They are totally subjective arguments and for many who cannot manage meaningful give and take in recognizing that there is no RIGHT answer it turns into a verbal fight. I recognize that each of us has their own perspective and reasoning so I just try to encourage the good stuff. Realize that we like what we like, sometimes without explanation and don't devote energy trying to convince others to viewing things the same way. Embrace the differences, discuss maturely and contribute to the posts without there having to turn into fisticuffs.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2017 8:38:02 GMT -5
Justice League of the America Archives #7 ...Stories #51–57, #59–60
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Post by Nowhere Man on Sept 14, 2017 8:50:14 GMT -5
I'll just chime in to say that the concept of subjectivity and art is something that has interested me for a long time now. The common understanding seems to be that art is subjective and if it speaks to you, that's that. But there is also the "objective" reality of consensus.
There are classical music fans who think that Mozart is overrated and rock fans who feel the same way about The Beatles. That said, the majority of critics and fans feel that they both represent the pinnacle (or close to it) of the respective art forms and point out that their influence is unmatched. Personally, I feel that influence can't be argued, or that it's the closest thing to the objective in art. What I think it comes down to is what you value more: the opinion and tastes of the individual or the opinions and tastes of the group. I'm not sure if there is a definite answer but it's something that I think about frequently.
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Post by Nowhere Man on Sept 14, 2017 8:58:21 GMT -5
What a fantastic issue. Sure, it might be a bit gimmicky that Peter getting a "24 hour virus" leads to the unmasking (kind of ingenious the more I think about it) but it worked. I think my favorite part of the issue takes place right at the end when Peter gets to tell off Liza and Flash in style. I think it's more nuanced than it appears. Peter is understandably unwilling to accept Liz's sudden infatuation given his apparent attempt to pose as Spider-Man to save Betty Brant, but Peter also seems oblivious to the fact that she's attracted to him because he, for the first time, reveals his TRUE heroic character. Classic issue.
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Post by brutalis on Sept 14, 2017 8:59:53 GMT -5
Received my copy of Archie's Best of Josie and the Pussycats yesterday in the mail from Amazon. Couldn't wait so I dug right in reading the 1st 3 stories in the book. Begins with the 1st story where the comic changed from Just Josie into being Josie and the Pussycats. Introduces Alexandra Cabot and the band is officially named. Good light fast and fun reading for the entire family! Classic Archie goodness all the way.
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Post by MDG on Sept 14, 2017 9:02:30 GMT -5
Quite the feeling of deja vu this AM: the argument of "objective aesthetic standards" vs. "I like it/don't like it = it's good/bad"... It's like the great philosophical question about The Three Stooges: "Is funny enough?"
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Post by Hoosier X on Sept 14, 2017 11:22:09 GMT -5
What a fantastic issue. Sure, it might be a bit gimmicky that Peter getting a "24 hour virus" leads to the unmasking (kind of ingenious the more I think about it) but it worked. I think my favorite part of the issue takes place right at the end when Peter gets to tell off Liza and Flash in style. I think it's more nuanced than it appears. Peter is understandably unwilling to accept Liz's sudden infatuation given his apparent attempt to pose as Spider-Man to save Betty Brant, but Peter also seems oblivious to the fact that she's attracted to him because he, for the first time, reveals his TRUE heroic character. Classic issue. This is one of my favorite issues of Ditko Spidey. From the "unmasking" of Peter Parker to the great fight at the conclusion where Doc Ock and Spidey crash into that conveniently located abandoned sculptor's studio, it's awesome!
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Post by Cei-U! on Sept 14, 2017 11:30:17 GMT -5
I think the crux of the problem is that people are having two different conversations. Exchanging views about your personal reaction to this comic or that movie is not the same conversation as evaluating them by a mutually-agreed-upon set of aesthetic standards. Both approaches are equally valid, but it's hard not to talk past each other and wind up frustrated in this kind of forum. It's just the nature of the beast. A little mutual respect for each others' take on the subject will go a long way toward getting past it.
Cei-U! I summon the olive branch!
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Sept 14, 2017 11:34:51 GMT -5
Quite the feeling of deja vu this AM: the argument of "objective aesthetic standards" vs. "I like it/don't like it = it's good/bad" was one that flared up every three months or so on CBR back in the day. Then, as now, it's one that can't be resolved. It can be debated, but care must be taken to keep personalities out of it. I personally tend to come down more on mrp's side than Hoosier's or Spike's while still understanding and respecting theirs. It can be a tricky tightrope to walk but I manage. Thus I can recognize the inherent quality of, say, Jim Starlin's work without liking it one wit *and* recognize the utter crapitude of creators and series I nonetheless adore. Cei-U! I summon the early morning ruminations! I don't think I could count the number of times that I got into this at CBR. Across forums. Like you, I tend to come down on mrp's side. Critics, historians, connoisseurs can come up with objective standards for art. I'm of the opinion that if art is completely subjective it's also completely meaningless. And I say that as someone who spends a fair amount of time reading books that are objectively pretty lousy. It always helps to recognize that the stuff you like can be crappy.
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