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Post by Hoosier X on Sept 14, 2017 11:41:12 GMT -5
I AM ZOM!!!! YOU WILL AGREE TO AGREE THAT MY AESTHETIC STANDARD IS THE ONLY OBJECTIVE TEMPLATE FOR EVALUATING COMIC BOOKS! MY CREDENTIALS ARE RIGHT HERE!! MY WEIRD FIRE-SPOUTING HAND-STUMPS!!!!
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Post by Hoosier X on Sept 14, 2017 12:39:49 GMT -5
I still don't really want to get into this discussion. Why? Because of all the intellectual dishonesty that pops up when you start getting into details and asking people to be a little more specific or anything like that. And, boy, wow, do people get mad when you point out how selectively they are applying their criteria or how inconsistent their standards are or how much they rely on logical fallacies. Pointing out such intellectual dishonesty or carelessness in logic is a way to get real unpopular real fast.
About post-Ditko Doctor Strange: I think it has been badly mischaracterized. But the criticisms were never specific enough about which issue or which incident was being criticized. And that always sets off a red flag for me. I really really don't like to get into a discussion with someone who loves their general and vague statements. It's like they start off giving themselves lots of leeway to wiggle around when you start trying to pin them down. Now I'm not saying anybody is doing it intentionally. But it's the kind of thing I like to stay away from.
It's very frustrating to do the research and present the material that proves your point and then have your argumentative friend dismiss it with some weak sophistry or ignore your point and then start constructing a straw man argument. And then you have to decide if you want to start dealing with a Gish Gallop or if you want to start listing the weak arguments and the fallacies. And at this point, it's best not to go on because it's a huge time-waster.
So I find it best not to even get to that point.
For the record, I am NOT in the "I like it, so it must be good" school. Any comments that suggest the contrary are just me trying to be flippant or just to bow out of the conversation without just cutting it off.
I will not be weighing in on "aesthetics standards" discussions again, but I felt like explaining why. My next post will probably be a subjective critique on why I didn't like Iron Man #5.
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Roquefort Raider
CCF Mod Squad
Modus omnibus in rebus
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Sept 14, 2017 13:56:39 GMT -5
I think the crux of the problem is that people are having two different conversations. Exchanging views about your personal reaction to this comic or that movie is not the same conversation as evaluating them by a mutually-agreed-upon set of aesthetic standards. Both approaches are equally valid, but it's hard not to talk past each other and wind up frustrated in this kind of forum. It's just the nature of the beast. A little mutual respect for each others' take on the subject will go a long way toward getting past it.Hear, hear! Regarding those post-Ditko, pre-Brunner issues, I am of two minds. Several storylines read as if they were made up on the spot with little planning for the future (which is usually O.K) and little remembrance of what came before (which made the actions of certain characters hard to understand). As a continuing story, it was a bit disjointed at times. On the other hand, some of my favourite Dr. Strange pages are there... Dan Adkins did a fantastic job with Nebulos and his alien-looking world. That was, to me, just as trippy and awe-inspiring as Ditko's stuff.
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Post by Hoosier X on Sept 15, 2017 1:32:13 GMT -5
I was seriously underwhelmed by Iron Man #5. Tony Stark is transported to the 24th century where a court of rebels have decided that HE MUST DIE! You see, the 24th century is ruled by an evil super-computer named Cerebrus that was created by Tony Stark in the 20th century. Eventually, the computer took over and has enslaved mankind. So if they kill Tony Stark, he won't ever create Cerebrus. Cerebrus attack while the rebel kangaroo court is in session and Stark escapes and finds a beautiful and smart woman who is a historian who disagreed with the assassination. She takes Tony to an abandoned museum where one of the exhibits is some Iron Man armor! But Cerebrus is too powerful and he quickly finds them and soon he has Iron Man on the ropes on the verge of defeat. But Tony gets an idea; he removes the mask and shows Cerebrus that he is Tony Stark. And if Cerebrus kills him, he won't be able to go back in time and create Cerebrus. So Cerebrus won't exist. But if Cerebrus doesn't exist, then who killed Tony Stark? Nobody! So that means that Cerbrus .... Cerebrus is really freaked out and his head blows up and the 24th century is saved! It doesn't really do a whole lot for me. But I'm really dreading the next issue. I used to have Iron Man #6 and I don't remember it that well. What I do remember if that the Crusher is one of the worst Silver Age Marvel villains and that I really have a strong dislike for #6.
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
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Post by Confessor on Sept 15, 2017 7:27:57 GMT -5
Read my recent The Thing and Marvel Team-Up purchases the other day and found them all to be enjoyable, without being mind-blowingly spectacular. Last night I settled down to read some vintage, '50s Dan Dare strips (the classic "The Man From Nowhere/Rogue Planet" adventure) -- British adventure strips really don't get much better than Frank Hampson's Dan Dare. Utterly awesome stuff.
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Post by Hoosier X on Sept 15, 2017 12:25:18 GMT -5
The final showdown with the man known as Destiny! I liked this a lot! Destiny is running for president! And he's using the power of the Serpent Crown to turn otherwise-sane people into enthusiastic, mindless sycophants who will support him no matter what. Chee! I bet President Trump would love to get his hands on the Serpent Crown. Without it, he only gets the support of people who are already his enthusiastic, mindless sycophants who will support him no matter what.
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Post by Hoosier X on Sept 15, 2017 15:39:20 GMT -5
I'm reading Captain America #108. It's the first appearance of Dr. Faustus! For some reason, I find it very amusing that Dr. Faustus looks just like John Goodman.
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Crimebuster
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Making comics!
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Post by Crimebuster on Sept 15, 2017 15:46:21 GMT -5
That's a great cover. Kirby did some really good covers for Captain America right at the start of this run here - between Kirby and Steranko, #100-113 have some terrific covers.
I think this logo suits Kirby's art better than the new one that debuted when Steranko took over with #110.
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Post by Hoosier X on Sept 15, 2017 19:07:22 GMT -5
That's a great cover. Kirby did some really good covers for Captain America right at the start of this run here - between Kirby and Steranko, #100-113 have some terrific covers. I think this logo suits Kirby's art better than the new one that debuted when Steranko took over with #110. I don't think I've read ANY of the issues between #107 and around #126. But I know about the Steranko issues and shortly after that, the introduction of the Falcon, which I think also involves the Red Skull and the Exiles! So I'm really looking forward to all that!
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Post by dbutler69 on Sept 16, 2017 10:00:22 GMT -5
I was seriously underwhelmed by Iron Man #5. Tony Stark is transported to the 24th century where a court of rebels have decided that HE MUST DIE! You see, the 24th century is ruled by an evil super-computer named Cerebrus that was created by Tony Stark in the 20th century. Eventually, the computer took over and has enslaved mankind. So if they kill Tony Stark, he won't ever create Cerebrus. Cerebrus attack while the rebel kangaroo court is in session and Stark escapes and finds a beautiful and smart woman who is a historian who disagreed with the assassination. She takes Tony to an abandoned museum where one of the exhibits is some Iron Man armor! But Cerebrus is too powerful and he quickly finds them and soon he has Iron Man on the ropes on the verge of defeat. But Tony gets an idea; he removes the mask and shows Cerebrus that he is Tony Stark. And if Cerebrus kills him, he won't be able to go back in time and create Cerebrus. So Cerebrus won't exist. But if Cerebrus doesn't exist, then who killed Tony Stark? Nobody! So that means that Cerbrus .... Cerebrus is really freaked out and his head blows up and the 24th century is saved! It doesn't really do a whole lot for me. But I'm really dreading the next issue. I used to have Iron Man #6 and I don't remember it that well. What I do remember if that the Crusher is one of the worst Silver Age Marvel villains and that I really have a strong dislike for #6. That sounds like the plot of multiple Star Trek episodes - using logic to blow some computer's mind.
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Post by Nowhere Man on Sept 16, 2017 11:16:24 GMT -5
One of my favorite early Thor issues (typically 1961-1964 is what I consider early Marvel Age) and certainly the most "cosmic" Marvel story to date given the level of power displayed here. This is the famous issue where Odin teleport's the entire human race to an alternate dimension so they wouldn't witness the battle with Skagg and Surtur (I don't know much about how writers used Skagg in the 70's, but it seems to me that his place was more or less usurped by Ymir, who eventually regenerates and returns.)
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Post by Hoosier X on Sept 16, 2017 12:14:31 GMT -5
One of my favorite early Thor issues (typically 1961-1964 is what I consider early Marvel Age) and certainly the most "cosmic" Marvel story to date given the level of power displayed here. This is the famous issue where Odin teleport's the entire human race to an alternate dimension so they wouldn't witness the battle with Skagg and Surtur (I don't know much about how writers used Skagg in the 70's, but it seems to me that his place was more or less usurped by Ymir, who eventually regenerates and returns.) I accumulated #103 to #111 when I was a kid and it's such a great run! (they were $3 to $4 in VG/F condition in the 1970s). I read them again just a few months ago and they are pretty awesome!
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Post by spoon on Sept 16, 2017 13:09:34 GMT -5
I finished Captain America #334-350 recently, which is the rest of the Captain America: The Captain TPB I was reading. For good measure, I read Avengers #298-300, because Steve Rogers appears as The Captain in those issues. Unfortunately, I don't have the Avengers Annual in which the Captain appears. I probably don't have the patience for a full-fledged review thread. However, I like these issues, so I'd like to write about these issues in a semi-detailed fashion here over a few posts.
#334: We start with the new Captain America, John Walker, reviewing film of Steve Rogers in action, as he was advised to do. Walker's buddy from the Bold Urban Commandos (Buckies), Lemar Hoskins, shows up in the training room in uniform as the new Bucky. While Walker trains, Hoskins has to go to Remedial English class. Hoskins is black and I think his depiction is somewhat problematic (as the kids say), but I think I'll hold off an in-depth discussion until I get to #341. Freedom Force makes fun of Cap & Bucky in the cafeteria. Very high school of them. Val Cooper informs Cap & Bucky that Ethan Thurm (former manager to Super-Patriot and the Buckies) has been calling the Commission to try to reach Walker. Cooper is not pleaseed.
Cap and Bucky have a training session with Guardsmen cadets (the green-armored guys from the Vault). The duo lasts 12 minutes. In separate debriefing, the Guardsmen are bashed and Cap & Bucky are praised. Walker thinks the trainer is going easy on them. Walker and Hoskins arrange a meeting with Ethan, Hector and Jerome (the 2 Buckies who didn't get hired). The new Cap is trying to get Ethan to stop calling the government. Instead, Ethan threatens to publicly reveal that Walker is the new Cap. Afterward, Lemar suggests they smack Ethan around to insure his silence. John thinks going rogue may hurt their careers. The next day, John has changed his mind. He decides the Captain America code of ethics is to solve your own problems rather than turning to your government handlers. Walker is a sociopath, but he's half-right. Cap has a training session with the Taskmaster, who is a prisoner of the government.
Walker has a plan. He and Hoskins will "borrow" a pair of Guardsman suits to kick the crap out of Ethan and the former Buckies, while protecting the reputations of the new Cap and Bucky, who haven't gone public yet. It goes according to plan, as much as a illegal, self-serving assault can. The threaten Ethan not to reveal the identities in the name of national security and one of the Buckies gets shot in the back with a laser blast. The total crazy plans couldn't blow back to hurt Walker, could it? Stay tuned. When Val Cooper confronts John about two stolen sets of armor and a super-powered bar fight, Walker confesses. He literally thinks, "What would Cap do?" Sociopathic Cap code of ethics! Walker and Hoskins can't keep their jobs after this, can they?
#335: Cap & Bucky still have their jobs! In fact, the Commission to Coordinate Super-Human Activities are so fine with their new psycho, that they swear him in and tell him his first mission is forthcoming. Val is disappointed the head commissioner didn't tell her a mission was lined up. Hmm? Meanwhile, in the "southeastern United States", a bunch of thugs in orange and purple tactical gear blow up a store with a sign labeled "Adult Books and Toys." The angry proprietor comes out wearing overalls and toting a shotgun. The thugs, who called themselves Watchdogs, line up like a firing squad and kill the store owner.
At a D.C. briefing, the new Cap and Bucky learn their mission is to take on the Watchdogs. The Dogs seem to be an amalgam of the Christian Right, with the terrorist tactics (and the non-racial issue positions) of the KKK. Cap & Bucky are told the Watchdogs are against "pornography, sex education, abortion, teaching of evolution." Walker thinks to himself, "Hmmm . . . I'm against those things, too," because that's how he rolls. The commissioner explains that even though people are entitled to their views, you can kill people and burn down buildings to enforce them. Whether that reasoning penetrates John's brain or he just wants to keep his job, he's on-board.
With DeMatteis having been pushed out over his plan to replace Steve Rogers with Native American Black Crow a few years before, it's interesting that specific political positions were used in this issue. One would think that the timidity might result in a "show both sides as equal" story. Sure Walker says he supports those views, but he's a sociopath. I guess the briefer saying violence is the right method was the way to inoculate the issue from right-wing criticism.
Cap and Bucky are setting up a sting, which happens to be set in John's old hometown of Custer's Grove, Georgia. At the barbershop, John slyly explains that he's back because he wants to raise a family where people have decent 'Murican values instead of decadent California. In part 2 of the sting, Lemar puts on his best Miami Vice outfit to pose a pornographer holding a casting call for a girlie magazine photo-shoot. Walker busts in, threatens to kick the "black butt" of the "filth peddler" (he knows the audience he's appealing to), and fight undercover Lemar. John notices an old girlfriend is at the casting call. John and Lemar are both jailed. An old friend bails John out and is impressed by the act John has been putting on.
That night, John is invited to join the Watchdogs. Their mission will be to burn down the county library, which has refused to remove 152 "immoral books". Take that, Charles Darwin and S.E. Hinton! But first, the Watchdogs need to lynch a pornographer. It's Lemar, who has been taken from the jail and drugged, so he can't resist. That plan didn't work out so well. John feels like the Commission is testing him. John's desperate plan is to suggest the Watchdogs burn down the library right away, so they're not so tired for their real jobs in the morning. Awesome suggestion, bro! Two guys stay behind to hang Lemar, but John hopes that Lemar's super-strength can handle those odds.
During their torchlight march to the library, Dog #1 mentions John is missing. Dog #2 is like, don't worry, bro, he said it was the "call of nature." Dogs always have to pee on their way to their first arson. There's Captain America on the library roof! Where'd he come from! With his shield practice and the Watchdogs not prepared to draw their guns, Cap makes short work of them. Cap runs back to check on Lemar. Lemar super-strong neck allowed him to survive until he could tear himself free and beat up the two Dogs, so it's all good.
Tom Morgan has been the penciler for these last few issues. He's solid. Morgan is better than some Beatty/inker pairings, but weaker than others.
Steve Rogers doesn't appear in either #334 or #335, as Gruenwald lets the readers get to know Walker and Hoskins. It takes some faith to have a sociopath have the whole protagonist spotlight while Rogers is nowhere to be seen.
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Post by Hoosier X on Sept 16, 2017 16:03:44 GMT -5
After Iron Man #5 and #6, #7 is a step in the right direction! The Maggia is planning a raid on Tony Stark's munitions facility but Big M, recently revealed as Whitney Frost, is having second thoughts because she's starting to see what a right guy Japser Sitwell is. And then there's the problem of what to do if Iron Man shows up. She solves the first problem by bringing in the Gladiator! And ... she doesn't really solve the problem about what to do about Jasper. It's a continued story, so maybe they figure it out in the next issue. I used to have #7 and #8 but it's been a long time and I don't remember what happens. I want to talk about the art for a moment. It's George Tuska and Johnny Craig, and it's really good! Especially Whitney Frost! What a looker! I'd be like "Its OK if you're the leader of an organized international criminal gang. That's not a dealbreaker. We can work this out."
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Post by Hoosier X on Sept 16, 2017 16:21:42 GMT -5
And then there's the Trapster! He's kidnapped Sharon Carter! Cap tracks him to his hide-out and he keeps getting stuck in the Trapster's paste ... but the paste keeps deteriorating at a bad moment. The Trapster can't believe his eyes! This can't be! The paste is unbeatable! Cap finally comes across Sharon glued to a table. But it's not Sharon! It's a S.H.I.E.L.D LMD! The Trapster abducted a robot! The real Sharon Carter comes out a of closet. She's been hiding in the Trapster's hide-out and diluting his paste! I was rolling my eyes a bit, but then I remembered who we're talking about. The Trapster! He may have taken on some new slick duds and given himself a new name and been a founding member of the Frightful Four and hovered on the fringes of the Marvel Super-Villain Big League, but he's still Paste-Pot Pete at heart. With his beret and his goatee and his stupid paste! What is a bit hard to believe is that the Red Skull hired him for the job! Perhaps the Red Skull is just playing 11th-dimension chess and it's all part of a master plan. It's a continued story so we'll have to wait to find out!
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