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Post by berkley on Jan 22, 2021 19:10:02 GMT -5
About 6 years ago I picked up three of the early Marvel Masterworks collections of The Avengers for cheap and I've tried to read them a number of times since then, but I find them a real slog to get through. I'm not really a fan of team books anyway, but Stan Lee and Roy Thomas's dialogue is so flowery and hard to get through, and I'm kind of "meh" about Don Heck's artwork. I tried again last night to read issue #38, in which Hercules first becomes a recurring character in the series, and I only managed to make it half way through before losing interest. I generally love Silver Age comics from Marvel, but I think I just have to accept that The Avengers isn't for me. Roy really hits his stride at the same time the art makes a quantum leap into the future - issue #52. I'm not sure why, but Buscema's art just kicks into another gear around this time, and we get one great story after another after another. The first Grim Reaper, the X-Men crossover, two-part story that introduces Ultron, two part time travel epic in #56-Annual #2, two parter that introduces Vision, two-parter that introduces Yellowjacket... the foundation for the next 20 years of Avengers stories all comes form this 9 month run. For me, the series is consistently excellent from this point on for the next two decades. The first 50 issues have some good stuff here and there, but #52 is where the book really takes off for me personally. That's roughly the same for me. I'd have to re-read those issues to pin it down precisely, but somewhere in the #50s is when it starts to becme the classic Avengers that I rate up there with my favourites. Looking at the gallery, #56 is the first one I remember for sure, but it could well begin a few issues earlier - I love the cover to #51 but can't recall the story.
But anyway, the rest of Roy Thomas's run is great, especially the John Buscema period - I'm not as great a fan of the Kree-Skrull War with Neal Adams as most people. And then you get Englehart's run which is my favourite Avengers of all, in spite of some inconsistent artwork for most of it.
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Post by profh0011 on Jan 23, 2021 16:44:01 GMT -5
One of the best FLASH GORDON comics ever created! From King Comics, Sep 1966 cover-to-cover art by AL WILLIAMSON ! Stories by Larry Ivie & Archie Goodwin linkCrazy enough, I ran across that page of that blog doing a search related to Larry Ivie. Apparently, he & Archie Goodwin each wrote one of the stories in that issue, but, both, UNCREDITED, to the point where in the 2nd issue, the letters page claimed Al Williamson wrote both scripts. Don't you HATE when someone publishes stuff UNCREDITED? The GCD lists Ivie & Williamson... but having now read both stories (for the first time!), if I had to guess, I'd say they got the writers reversed. The 2nd story involved a "Mole" machine to tunnel underground, where Gordon & Zarkov find a civilization side-by-side with DINOSAURS. I know FLASH GORDON was initially inspired by Edgar Rice Burroughs ( JOHN CARTER OF MARS), but this clearly delves into THE LAND THAT TIME FORGOT and AT THE EARTH'S CORE territory. And based on all 7 issues of " MONSTERS AND HEROES" magazine, Larry Ivie was a HUGE Burroughs fan! Confusingly... the cover text reads "Flash returns to the strange planet of Mongo!" But the illustrations depicts a scene from the 2nd story, which takes place ON EARTH.
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Post by dbutler69 on Jan 24, 2021 10:31:13 GMT -5
I read the Brave and the Bold #200. I remember that I bought this on the newsstand because I loved the cover. The story inside is really good, too. It's not a true team-up between the two Batmen, but they do battle the same baddie, though unaware of it. Some excellent Dave Gibbons art here, and a good story by Mike Barr, who'd become the closest thing to a regular B&B writer after Bob Haney left the title (much too late, IMHO).
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Post by dbutler69 on Jan 24, 2021 14:16:32 GMT -5
I read Justice League of America (2006) #1-6, the Tornado's Path story. I thought it was quite good. I've always liked the Red Tornado, I liked his romance how Kathy Sutton and I thought it was sweet how he adopted that war orphan. It was nice to see them again. The art by Ed Benes (Sandra Hope inks) was excellent. I do think, though, that they dragged out the "who's going to be in the new JLA?" thing a bit, and as far as I could tell, even after #6, nobody had been officially invited (or accepted) membership, unless it happened off panel or I missed something. Also, some things went over my head since I'm not an expert on DC continuity of this era. And here's my pointless observation of the day: of the 9 superheroes who I think are the new members of the JLA, 5 of them have colors in their name: two reds, two blacks, and a green.
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Post by profh0011 on Jan 24, 2021 14:43:48 GMT -5
Roy really hits his stride at the same time the art makes a quantum leap into the future - issue #52. I'm not sure why, but Buscema's art just kicks into another gear around this time, and we get one great story after another after another. The first Grim Reaper, the X-Men crossover, two-part story that introduces Ultron, two part time travel epic in #56-Annual #2, two parter that introduces Vision, two-parter that introduces Yellowjacket... the foundation for the next 20 years of Avengers stories all comes form this 9 month run. For me, the series is consistently excellent from this point on for the next two decades. The first 50 issues have some good stuff here and there, but #52 is where the book really takes off for me personally. That's roughly the same for me. I'd have to re-read those issues to pin it down precisely, but somewhere in the #50s is when it starts to becme the classic Avengers that I rate up there with my favourites. Looking at the gallery, #56 is the first one I remember for sure, but it could well begin a few issues earlier - I love the cover to #51 but can't recall the story.
But anyway, the rest of Roy Thomas's run is great, especially the John Buscema period - I'm not as great a fan of the Kree-Skrull War with Neal Adams as most people. And then you get Englehart's run which is my favourite Avengers of all, in spite of some inconsistent artwork for most of it.
I'd say I'm mostly in agreement with this as well.
It took decades before I was able to read the BULK of that run... and I owe it to the ESSENTIAL books, which collected so many issues SO CHEAPLY!!
The earliest issues of AVENGERS, you had Jack Kirby writing the stories, and Stan Lee writing the dialogue.
Then... you had the tag-team of Kirby on "story ideas" (standard rule of thumb: if Kirby did THE COVER, and created that issue's VILLAIN, he came up with the story idea); Don Heck writing the stories based on Kirby's ideas; and Lee doing the dialogue.
It is VERY noticable that Roy Thomas gets on the book at the exact same time that Kirby STOPS doing the covers. And, also, Thomas got his hero Gil Kane to do a whole run of covers, all of which were UGLY-AS HELL. (It was during his "transitional" period, where he was trying to imitate Kirby's storytelling, but had not quite yet developed his "later" style that he stuck with for the rest of his career.)
When Thomas takes over, it's also when the AVENGERS starts to feel more like the JUSTICE SOCIETY OF AMERICA than it ever did before.
Sadly, it's also when Don Heck's art goes to HELL, either from Heck inking himself (and probably being over-worked between Marvel and work he was doing for other publishers), and George Roussos, who, let's face it, was NEVER the best inker for ANYBODY.
What I noticed was when John Buscema replaced Don Heck (allegedly so Heck could focus on the AVENGERS ANNUAL, but after, Thomas fell so much in love with Buscema's work that-- whatta ya know-- Heck just didn't come back), all the characters felt like they'd been replaced with imposters. That's really how it felt to me. It was like a long-running TV series, where, suddenly, between issues, every actor had been recast. It may have looked nice, but it just felt wrong.
Worst of them was Hank & Jan. Hank got mentally unstable, and Jan became an IDIOT, which she had never been before. Horrible mis-characterization of other people's characters. (ESSENTIAL ANT-MAN is another book I loved, and Jan was never stupid in there.)
Plus, you have the long-running problem of Thomas writing the STIFFEST, most un-natural dialogue in the entire history of comic-books.
I felt Thomas somehow got this problem under control... just about exactly when GEORGE KLEIN got fired by Carmine Infantino, and had to go over to Marvel to keep working steady. The John Buscema-George Klein art team was one of my FAVORITES of that entire era, and my favorite of all the work Klein inked for Marvel. Those issues GLEAMED, and Roy managed to keep his worst problems under control.
This was fine... until "ye editor" decided HE wanted to yank Buscema off the book to do AMAZING SPIDER-MAN with John Romita... an assignment Buscema said he HATED. (He said he especially hated Aunt May.) Even Romita said in various interviews that the form their collaboration took wound up taking MORE time than if Romita had done his own layouts, so those 10 whole issues of Romita-Buscema were a nice-looking waste of time and talent. But worse, it broke up one of my favorite teams, FAR too early.
You had Barry Smith, and Gene Colan, and then Klein dropped dead from a heart attack... and then you had SAL Buscema & Sam Grainger (one of the VERY best inkers of the late 60s, inking Sal when he was still doing FULL pencils, and arguably, the BEST work of his long, long, long career). It was "nice".
And then out of nowhere, John came back, suddenly teamed with TOM PALMER. Whoa!!!!!!!!!
But then Sal came back... and then Neal Adams got involved, and while his pages LOOKED impressive, those stories, and his visual story-telling, really weren't nearly as good as the ones Thomas did with John Buscema. "Flashy" does not equal "better".
And then you had a few issues with Barry Smith, followed by Rich Buckler... and by this time (actually, long before this time), Thomas' dialogue started to get WORSE by the month, on top of his stories becoming more convoluted, contrived and annoying.
I like Thomas on CONAN, or when he does adaptations of classic novels. But his superhero stuff, for me just gets worse with each passing year.
I swear. When Steve Englehart took over... even before he got good, even before he figured out what he was doing... I felt he was a MASSIVE improvement, and a godsend.
Annnnnnnd I think that pretty much sums up my feelings of Thomas' AVENGERS run.
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Post by tarkintino on Jan 24, 2021 17:19:15 GMT -5
Roy really hits his stride at the same time the art makes a quantum leap into the future - issue #52. I'm not sure why, but Buscema's art just kicks into another gear around this time, and we get one great story after another after another. The first Grim Reaper, the X-Men crossover, two-part story that introduces Ultron, two part time travel epic in #56-Annual #2, two parter that introduces Vision, two-parter that introduces Yellowjacket... the foundation for the next 20 years of Avengers stories all comes form this 9 month run. For me, the series is consistently excellent from this point on for the next two decades. The first 50 issues have some good stuff here and there, but #52 is where the book really takes off for me personally. Roy Thomas and Buscema put The Avengers on the map with such creative force and understanding of the characters' emotional potential, that the book finally rivaled the Fantastic Four as the best team title. Lee built the foundation of the way a team with a tendency toward butting-heads could still be heroic, but Thomas evolved that into characters who--by this period--were now a group comfortable with each other, which made their responses to conflict that much more interesting. You had the feeling that they actually cared about one another, and were not simply chess pieces on a "group" board because of the demands of the book type. Although I read the F.F. published at the same time as this Avengers run, I found the latter just being more compelling as the years moved forward, from one classic arc to another, even after Buscema's departure from the title.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2021 19:53:52 GMT -5
Aquaman: The Search for Mera HC. Collects Aquaman (1962-1978 1st Series) #40-48. Written by Steve Skeates. Art by Jim Aparo. Cover by Nick Cardy. The start of writer Steve Skeates Aquaman run along with artist Jim Aparo in his first DC work. This run started around the time when I could only afford a handful of titles each month. I always liked Aquaman from the 60's cartoon. So when I had more money in the 70's I was able to follow his stories in Adventure Comics and his solo title. I had always wanted to read the Skeates run from the 60's but it was difficult or too expensive to get in back issues. So I was excited to see his run collected here and in a second volume collecting #49-56 (which I will be reading soon). I really loved it. Skeates is one of the under rated writers from the 60's & 70's. Paired with Aparo in his first DC work made for a classic run on Aquaman that still holds up today. Aquaman first solo series had stellar artists... Nick Cardy. Jim Aparo. Don Newton.
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Post by MDG on Jan 28, 2021 8:34:30 GMT -5
Aquaman: The Search for Mera HC. Collects Aquaman (1962-1978 1st Series) #40-48. Written by Steve Skeates. Art by Jim Aparo. Cover by Nick Cardy. Yeah. I've been reading this on Hoopla (even though this is one of the books that Skeates' sister gave me last week) and am enjoying it a lot. The stories are basically done-in-one, serving an overall story arc, and Skeates is able to recap and bring the reader up to date in a few panels.
Exciting, well-paced reads. Aparo is doing good work here and I can see him experimenting with a few things--not Steranko-level, but little technique things. Maybe spotting some Williamson influence in his art?
Also: I gotta say between Aquaman and Teen Titans, Cardy may have delivered the most sustained run of great covers ever. (Unlike Kane and Infantino, he's not as weighed down by "gimmick" covers, and unlike Kirby and Ditko, sharing real estate with "bombast.")
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Post by commond on Jan 28, 2021 8:51:54 GMT -5
I finished reading every post in this thread. Great stuff, guys. Plenty of recommendations for future reading.
I'm halfway through the Dark Age books in Astro City. A few people in this thread mentioned that the Dark Age books were a slog to get through, but I haven't felt that way. I guess it helps that the arcs I enjoyed the most had a darker edge to them (The Confessor arc and the Steeljack arc). I grew up in the 80s and 90s when superheroes were meant to be darker, and I've spent the past few years exploring the 70s comics where the tonal shift first began.
I'm still enjoying Starman. James Robinson enjoys writing about things he likes (to put it nicely), and there are moments where the characters have ridiculous debates about pop culture that seem to be influenced by Tarantino, but aren't as universal as Tarantino. Reservoir Dog characters argued about Madonna songs, but Robinson's characters argue about far more esoteric topics. All writers have bad habits, though. I feel like that's something his editor should have curbed. I pretty much love everything else Robinson does in terms of messing with comic book structure. There's no real emotional pull yet, where I have to keep reading, though I do like Jack's relationship with his dad. The art, and character design, is really 90s at times, but I do love the foreshadowing and the preordained sense that the book is leading somewhere.
I was kind of disappointed by Barry Smith's second run on Conan the Barbarian after they announced he was leaving the book. He struggled to keep up with the deadlines and ended up doing a lot of breakdowns. Gil Kane did the fill-in issues between Smith's two stints. Opinion was divided in the letter column over Kane's work, but personally I thought it was much better than Smith's second run.
I recently finished Omega the Unknown. I'm not a huge fan of Steve Gerber, but as far as deconstructionist takes on the superhero genre go, I think his unfinished run on Omega pretty much encapsulates the heart and soul of what he was trying to do.
I've been slowly making my way through the Five Years Later Legion of Superheroes. I usually enjoy dystopian future stories, but I've got to be honest, it is really hard to follow what is going on. It's not like I haven't read the famous runs on Legion. Admittedly, it's been a few years, but still... I feel lost from issue to issue, and Giffen's art doesn't hold up.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jan 28, 2021 10:13:19 GMT -5
I finished reading every post in this thread. Great stuff, guys. Plenty of recommendations for future reading. I'm halfway through the Dark Age books in Astro City. A few people in this thread mentioned that the Dark Age books were a slog to get through, but I haven't felt that way. I guess it helps that the arcs I enjoyed the most had a darker edge to them (The Confessor arc and the Steeljack arc). I grew up in the 80s and 90s when superheroes were meant to be darker, and I've spent the past few years exploring the 70s comics where the tonal shift first began. I'm still enjoying Starman. James Robinson enjoys writing about things he likes (to put it nicely), and there are moments where the characters have ridiculous debates about pop culture that seem to be influenced by Tarantino, but aren't as universal as Tarantino. Reservoir Dog characters argued about Madonna songs, but Robinson's characters argue about far more esoteric topics. All writers have bad habits, though. I feel like that's something his editor should have curbed. I pretty much love everything else Robinson does in terms of messing with comic book structure. There's no real emotional pull yet, where I have to keep reading, though I do like Jack's relationship with his dad. The art, and character design, is really 90s at times, but I do love the foreshadowing and the preordained sense that the book is leading somewhere. I was kind of disappointed by Barry Smith's second run on Conan the Barbarian after they announced he was leaving the book. He struggled to keep up with the deadlines and ended up doing a lot of breakdowns. Gil Kane did the fill-in issues between Smith's two stints. Opinion was divided in the letter column over Kane's work, but personally I thought it was much better than Smith's second run. I recently finished Omega the Unknown. I'm not a huge fan of Steve Gerber, but as far as deconstructionist takes on the superhero genre go, I think his unfinished run on Omega pretty much encapsulates the heart and soul of what he was trying to do. I've been slowly making my way through the Five Years Later Legion of Superheroes. I usually enjoy dystopian future stories, but I've got to be honest, it is really hard to follow what is going on. It's not like I haven't read the famous runs on Legion. Admittedly, it's been a few years, but still... I feel lost from issue to issue, and Giffen's art doesn't hold up. Welcome to the forum , commond! I also felt the the Dark Age was a slow read, and I didn't connect to the characters but I felt it rebounded a bit at the end. That's an interesting view on Robinsons Starman series. He did indulge his hobbies inside the story settings but I don't remember it taking over the stories. There was a part of the letter column that had people writing in about their collectibles. I have the entire series and plan to do a read through maybe this year.
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Post by spoon on Jan 29, 2021 19:46:44 GMT -5
My Hal Jordan/Green Lantern binge read has now taken me through Showcase Presents Green Lantern vol. 3 reprinting Green Lantern #39-59. Since this volume includes an issue of the Zatanna's Search story, I decide to also read the two other parts of the story I have in Showcase Presents TPBs from Hawkman and The Atom.
I feel the writing gets more sophisticated in this volume. The Calvinball quality of fight sequences gets toned a bit, and thus the fights get more interesting to follow. In volumes 1 and 2, most issues were split between 2 stories. Book-length stories were infrequent. In this volume, the patterns is reversed. Book-length stories predomiant, especially after #50. Also, after numerous self-contained issues (albeit with references to past issues or subplots), this volume finally has a couple of cliffhangers that are continued in the next issue. Interestingly, the first cliffhanger starts in a half-length story in one issue and concludes in a full-length story in the next.
But my favorite storytelling development in this volume is a major status quo change! After repetition of basically the same dynamics with only minimal changes, Hal leaves Coast City because he is heartbroken when Carol Ferris announces that she's engaged to another man. So Hal loses his supporting cast and does some wandering. When he settles in Washington state, he trades his test pilot job for a much more exciting career: insurance adjuster!!! I really like the character development, the personal change, and the disruption of the monotony of the Hal/Carol dynamic. We have get a bit of the status quo change in the Pol Manning/5700 stories. When he moves, Hal decides to rely on his ring less and his fists more. Although that reasoning is barely mentioned again, it leads to a period were the seemingly limitless extent of GL's powers in early issues are narrowed to the Bronze/Modern Age conception of his powers.
On the villain front, vol. 2 fleshed out most of the classic GL villains that come to mind. There are just a few main additions in vol. 3: Goldface (who actually appears under his real name without his costume in vol. 2), Major Disaster, and Baron Tyrano. I don't Tyrano appears much after this, but he actually has a Who's Who entry. Sinestro also shows up for the first time since #18. On the whole though, recurring villains are de-emphasized compared to vol. 2. Two human who eventually become GLs in one way or another show up: Charley Vicker and Guy Gardner. There's also a minor retcon for consistency sake, as Hal explains that he didn't actually come up with name Green Lantern (as stated in his first story), but rather had the name implanted in his mind by Abin Sur (to be consistent with other GLs using that name).
One last change: around the middle of this volume, Gil Kane starts inking his own pencils instead of being inked by Sid Greene. It's a thicker line and more cartoony. To me the art is even better.
Next, it's on to the unusually short Showcase Presents Green Lantern vol. 4!
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Post by Batflunkie on Jan 29, 2021 22:49:05 GMT -5
Shade The Changing Man #1-#4 I don't think I've ever called something the "comic book equivalent of a bad acid trip", but Shade is that in spades. I particularly liked the introduction of The American Scream with him creating this fever dream around some hapless fool's delusions of conspiracy over the JFK Assassination. And that JFK Sphinx, Jesus...
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,143
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Post by Confessor on Jan 30, 2021 1:45:24 GMT -5
I'm halfway through the Dark Age books in Astro City. A few people in this thread mentioned that the Dark Age books were a slog to get through, but I haven't felt that way. I guess it helps that the arcs I enjoyed the most had a darker edge to them (The Confessor arc and the Steeljack arc). It also probably helps that you're able to read through the Dark Age issues all together, rather than having to wait through month after month and year after year of publishing delays that killed any sense of momentum the story arc had. It's not that it was too dark: it was that reading that thing as it came out felt like living through the 1970s in real time!
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Post by commond on Jan 30, 2021 7:59:06 GMT -5
I'm halfway through the Dark Age books in Astro City. A few people in this thread mentioned that the Dark Age books were a slog to get through, but I haven't felt that way. I guess it helps that the arcs I enjoyed the most had a darker edge to them (The Confessor arc and the Steeljack arc). It also probably helps that you're able to read through the Dark Age issues all together, rather than having to wait through month after month and year after year of publishing delays that killed any sense of momentum the story arc had. It's not that it was too dark: it was that reading that thing as it came out felt like living through the 1970s in real time! Someone else told me the same thing. I guess it's a good thing that I was living through my own comics Dark Age.
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Post by commond on Jan 30, 2021 8:09:29 GMT -5
I'm still enjoying Starman. James Robinson enjoys writing about things he likes (to put it nicely), and there are moments where the characters have ridiculous debates about pop culture that seem to be influenced by Tarantino, but aren't as universal as Tarantino. Reservoir Dog characters argued about Madonna songs, but Robinson's characters argue about far more esoteric topics. All writers have bad habits, though. I feel like that's something his editor should have curbed. I pretty much love everything else Robinson does in terms of messing with comic book structure. There's no real emotional pull yet, where I have to keep reading, though I do like Jack's relationship with his dad. The art, and character design, is really 90s at times, but I do love the foreshadowing and the preordained sense that the book is leading somewhere. Welcome to the forum , commond! I also felt the the Dark Age was a slow read, and I didn't connect to the characters but I felt it rebounded a bit at the end. That's an interesting view on Robinsons Starman series. He did indulge his hobbies inside the story settings but I don't remember it taking over the stories. There was a part of the letter column that had people writing in about their collectibles. I have the entire series and plan to do a read through maybe this year. I wouldn't say it took over the stories as such, but it's definitely something that Robinson indulges in. The most recent example I read was the characters discussing their favorite Woody Allen film. Each of the characters has a favorite, even Woodrue, who finds Allen's Interiors hilarious. If you don't get the joke, Interiors was a morose, serious film. Woody Allen's attempt at emulating his hero, Ingmar Bergman. Batman doesn't have a favorite since he apparently doesn't watch films, but it's a set up for a latter punchline where he says Crimes and Misdemeanors is his favorite. A friend of mine told me this type of banter opened his eyes to a wealth of older stuff when he read the series as a teenager. I can see that. I just feel like it's a circle jerk as an adult.
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