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Post by kirby101 on Feb 13, 2021 9:50:20 GMT -5
Durazinger, the next 10 issues are exceptional, with #51 being one of the all time great stories.
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Post by profh0011 on Feb 13, 2021 11:45:28 GMT -5
Fantastic Four #39-50 & Annual #3 Some months back, I'd mentioned that I had grown weary of Lee's writing and was going to begin skipping over it to concentrate on Kirby's art alone. A number of folks here advised against that, saying this was the point in the title where the plotting picked up and became worth reading. I decided to take your advice to heart. This last batch of issues has been far more engrossing than what came before. I still dislike how Lee writes the women and romantic relationships in this series, but at least I'm enjoying the plots. The unfortunate thing is that not only were the characters often re-written, their personalities changed at the dialogue stage, the STORIES were also often changed and mutilated beyond recognition in more ways that one might expect possible under the circumstances.
Fan Chris Tolworthy has pointed out, just for an example, that the giant "weapon" that Maximus constructed which appeared to "not work"... in fact sent a signal into space, which is what called THE SILVER SURFER to Earth so Galactus could destroy it. NO S***.
That's why the sudden shift from one story to another right in the middle of the issue. They were supposed to be directly connected.
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Post by Icctrombone on Feb 13, 2021 12:47:02 GMT -5
Fantastic Four #39-50 & Annual #3 Some months back, I'd mentioned that I had grown weary of Lee's writing and was going to begin skipping over it to concentrate on Kirby's art alone. A number of folks here advised against that, saying this was the point in the title where the plotting picked up and became worth reading. I decided to take your advice to heart. This last batch of issues has been far more engrossing than what came before. I still dislike how Lee writes the women and romantic relationships in this series, but at least I'm enjoying the plots. The unfortunate thing is that not only were the characters often re-written, their personalities changed at the dialogue stage, the STORIES were also often changed and mutilated beyond recognition in more ways that one might expect possible under the circumstances.
Fan Chris Tolworthy has pointed out, just for an example, that the giant "weapon" that Maximus constructed which appeared to "not work"... in fact sent a signal into space, which is what called THE SILVER SURFER to Earth so Galactus could destroy it. NO S***.
That's why the sudden shift from one story to another right in the middle of the issue. They were supposed to be directly connected.
Sometimes I think you don't like Stan Lee very much. |
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Post by Hoosier X on Feb 13, 2021 21:15:33 GMT -5
Fantastic Four #39-50 & Annual #3 Some months back, I'd mentioned that I had grown weary of Lee's writing and was going to begin skipping over it to concentrate on Kirby's art alone. A number of folks here advised against that, saying this was the point in the title where the plotting picked up and became worth reading. I decided to take your advice to heart. This last batch of issues has been far more engrossing than what came before. I still dislike how Lee writes the women and romantic relationships in this series, but at least I'm enjoying the plots. I started at #1 in December and I’m up to #22. I love this stuff! I’ve read the first fifty issues a few times. I bought the Epic Collection for #52 up to #68 and I’m very much looking forward to continuing past #50 this time. |
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Post by Hoosier X on Feb 13, 2021 21:17:02 GMT -5
Fantastic Four #39-50 & Annual #3 Some months back, I'd mentioned that I had grown weary of Lee's writing and was going to begin skipping over it to concentrate on Kirby's art alone. A number of folks here advised against that, saying this was the point in the title where the plotting picked up and became worth reading. I decided to take your advice to heart. This last batch of issues has been far more engrossing than what came before. I still dislike how Lee writes the women and romantic relationships in this series, but at least I'm enjoying the plots. The unfortunate thing is that not only were the characters often re-written, their personalities changed at the dialogue stage, the STORIES were also often changed and mutilated beyond recognition in more ways that one might expect possible under the circumstances.
Fan Chris Tolworthy has pointed out, just for an example, that the giant "weapon" that Maximus constructed which appeared to "not work"... in fact sent a signal into space, which is what called THE SILVER SURFER to Earth so Galactus could destroy it. NO S***.
That's why the sudden shift from one story to another right in the middle of the issue. They were supposed to be directly connected.
😮 |
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Post by Hoosier X on Feb 13, 2021 21:25:58 GMT -5
Although I’m concentrating on FF, I also sometimes read Spider-Man. I read Spider-Man Annual #3 a few days ago. It’s been a while since I read it - 40 years maybe? I didn’t much like it as a kid because so little space is devoted to Spidey finding the Hulk. But I liked it a lot better this time around, especially the many many pages of the Avengers sitting around talking! Nice Romita/Heck/Esposito art on Thor, Cap, Shell-Head, Giant-Man, the Wasp and Hawkeye.
And I also read Spidey #44. The most amazing thing is how cute and cuddly Romita’s Lizard is! He looks like a bath toy! I also liked the scene where Peter ran into the gang - Gwen, Flash and Harry - at the Silver Spoon ... and then Mary Jane walks in and everybody is impressed that she knows Peter! (Well, Gwen’s not so impressed!)
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Post by berkley on Feb 14, 2021 0:12:25 GMT -5
The unfortunate thing is that not only were the characters often re-written, their personalities changed at the dialogue stage, the STORIES were also often changed and mutilated beyond recognition in more ways that one might expect possible under the circumstances.
Fan Chris Tolworthy has pointed out, just for an example, that the giant "weapon" that Maximus constructed which appeared to "not work"... in fact sent a signal into space, which is what called THE SILVER SURFER to Earth so Galactus could destroy it. NO S***.
That's why the sudden shift from one story to another right in the middle of the issue. They were supposed to be directly connected.
Sometimes I think you don't like Stan Lee very much.
Putting personal feelings aside though, this does raise a very interesting point about that famous sequence of issues - the sudden transition from an Inhumans story that seemed to be just getting going to the Galactus/Silver Surfer story, something pretty much everyone agrees made no sense in the comics as written, may have been a little less illogical, at least in this one respect (it doesn't remove the problem that we left the Inhumans in the middle of an important new story for the series) .
I like Stan Lee's writing myself, the energy, the dialogue, the whole style - even the jokes still seem funny to me, after all these years and changes in atttitudes, humour, speech patterns, etc. But as synergistic as his collaboration with Kirby was in many ways, their sensibilities and world-views clashed in many others, and from the evidence of Kirby's uninked pages with dialogue and direction written in, there seems to be no doubt that Stan often did totally misunderstand - or just plain miss altogether - what was going on. And that's a loss.
Remember in the early 70s some music magazine - was it Hit Parader? - interviewed John Lennon and Paul McCartney separately and went through the entire Lennon & McCartney song catalogue, asking them how the song came to be written, who contributed which parts, etc? Their memories agreed pretty on much 99.99%, in spite of them not being on the best of terms at the time.
It's too bad no one ever thought to sit down with Kirby and Lee, separately, and go through the FF and Thor issue by issue to get their detailed memories of what they were each trying to do in that particular issue or story. Now that would have been something to read. As usual, comics "journalists" missed the most important, basic, obvious questions.
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,143 
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Post by Confessor on Feb 14, 2021 17:15:35 GMT -5
Although I’m concentrating on FF, I also sometimes read Spider-Man. I read Spider-Man Annual #3 a few days ago. It’s been a while since I read it - 40 years maybe? I didn’t much like it as a kid because so little space is devoted to Spidey finding the Hulk. But I liked it a lot better this time around, especially the many many pages of the Avengers sitting around talking! Nice Romita/Heck/Esposito art on Thor, Cap, Shell-Head, Giant-Man, the Wasp and Hawkeye. And I also read Spidey #44. The most amazing thing is how cute and cuddly Romita’s Lizard is! He looks like a bath toy! I also liked the scene where Peter ran into the gang - Gwen, Flash and Harry - at the Silver Spoon ... and then Mary Jane walks in and everybody is impressed that she knows Peter! (Well, Gwen’s not so impressed!) I haven't read ASM Annual #3 in a long old time, but not as long as you though. Must be around a decade for me, I would think. I've maybe read it two or three times in total, and I remember liking it a fair bit. I think I'll try digging it out again soon and give it a re-read to refresh my memory. I remember ASM #44 well. That scene in the Silver Spoon with Peter, Gwen and MJ is a classic. I also always liked how Romita drew the Lizard; he elongated his snout more than Ditko and perhaps made him a bit better looking (you know, for a Lizard-man). Still, I'm not sure I'd use the word "cuddly" to describe him. |
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Post by Duragizer on Feb 14, 2021 17:31:02 GMT -5
Who was the first artist to depict the Lizard with teeth? That's the Lizard I prefer.
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,143
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Post by Confessor on Feb 14, 2021 17:36:38 GMT -5
It's too bad no one ever thought to sit down with Kirby and Lee, separately, and go through the FF and Thor issue by issue to get their detailed memories of what they were each trying to do in that particular issue or story. Now that would have been something to read. As usual, comics "journalists" missed the most important, basic, obvious questions.As I've gotten more interested in the background history of the comics I love (mostly as a result of being part of this community for the last 15 years), I've been really frustrated by the lack of quality journalism and serious critical study available. My first love is popular music and in that field there is masses of high quality serious critical and historical evaluation, as you mention. I guess the lack of quality critical study is symptomatic of the lack of respect comic books have received from mainstream society historically. |
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,143
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Post by Confessor on Feb 14, 2021 17:47:43 GMT -5
Who was the first artist to depict the Lizard with teeth? That's the Lizard I prefer. That would be Gil Kane, I believe. Certainly the Lizard didn't have teeth with Ditko or Romita. Weirdly, he went back to being toothless with Ross Andru, who came after Kane. Lots of artists since the 90s have depicted him with big, razor-sharp teeth. |
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Post by spoon on Feb 14, 2021 19:34:53 GMT -5
I read Showcase Presents Green Lantern vol. 5 reprinting Green Lantern/Green Arrow #76-89 plus the Green Lantern back-ups stories in Flash #217-221, 223-224, 226-228, 230-231, 233-234, 237-238, 240-243, 245-246. I have color TPBs reprinting some of those issues, so in those cases I read the color issues instead. There were also a few issues of Flash where GL teamed up with Flash for full length stories. Those aren't reprinted in the TPB, but I read one of them via the original comic #235. Now, I've just started with Green Lantern/Green Arrow #90-91, the first two issues of the 1978 revival of the series.
The O'Neil/Adams issues are better than they remember them being. First, Neal Adams does such great work. And while the stories sometimes beat you over the head with their messages, it's a bit more skillful than I remembered. It's also more sophisticated than earlier issues. They do make Hal a bit more close-minded to facilitate the clash of viewpoints with Green Arrow, but I'm more tolerant of that technique nowadays. Also, GL's ring is reduced in power, because he's on a semi-hiatus. This also helps make GL's battles with earthbound, non-powered threats more even. I think the only classic GL villains are Sinestro (in the non-political issues) and Black Hand. Aside from depicting the Guardians as out of touch, these issues don't build on the mythos of the Corps too much. It does introduce Maltus though, a planet with a overcrowding problem (a sly reference to Thomas Malthus) that I remember showing up again in the Englehart/Staton era. One memorable twist is Green Arrow accidentally killing an assailant at a time when heroes weren't depicting killing too often.
Black Canary shows up occasionally and is a welcome addition to the book. Also, Carol Ferris showed up briefly toward the end of the Silver Age run, she comes up about halfway into O'Neil/Adams. Her return is welcome, too, as it provides a lover interest for Hal to work off of, rather than just relying on the GL/GA dynamic. Hal and Carol seemingly have a falling out at the end of Adams's run, but she shows up as Hal's girlfriend in Flash #235 with seemingly no problems.
After Flash #219, Adams leaves the backup stories. Green Arrow and Black Canary depart as well, apparently getting a separate back-up feature in Action Comics. Although the political stories pretty much end when Adams leaves (he does come back for one story later), Denny O'Neil sticks around as writer in the back-ups and into the revival with GL/GA #90. The back stories most have alien villains, and Hal roams around the U.S. seeking employment. Also, in the last 2 backups, a human scientist is transformed into the Floronic Man. His ring is also brought back to full power as he agrees to take on the missions the Guardians give him. There's arc in space where Hal picks a pet space creature (sort of a starfish/anemone) that he names Itty. I knew about Itty, but I don't think I've read an Itty story before. Itty is gone without explanation when GL/GA relaunches. There's also no explanation of why the GL/GA partnership resumes after the reluanch. In the post-Adams period, Dick Dillin and Mike Grell are the two main pencillers. At first Grell has inkers, but when GL/GA #90 rolls around, Grell is doing the full art chores.
It's a bit surprising that this far in, some basic points of the Green Lantern Corps haven't been established. For example, I took it as a given that there were 3600 sectors each with a GL. In one of the earliest stories, it was established that Hal's sector was 2814, implying there are thousands of Lanterns. But in subsequent issues sector numbers are rarely mentioned. In one issue a sector designation is given as a combination of letters and numbers, and in a few other cases they're very low numbers. In one issue, it was mentioned that there were merely "dozens" of Green Lanterns, and in another issue it's implied that the Guardians are actually expanding the number of GLs over time.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2021 21:52:47 GMT -5
 Aquaman: Deadly Waters HC. Collects Aquaman (1962) #49-56. Written by Steve Skeates. Art by Jim Aparo. Cover art by Nick Cardy. Deadman back up in #50-52 by Neal Adams. Ocean Master. Black Manta. Aliens. And Aquaman trapped in another dimension. This story had it all. Atlantis in peril. Aquaman fighting on land & under the sea & in other dimensions. Old foes. Mera. Vulko. Aqualad. Tula. And a Deadman back up that tied into the main Aquaman story. Great stories and art. Aquaman #56 (1971) would be the last issue of Aquaman for 6 years. #57 would come out in 1977. Aquaman #56 and Sub-Mariner #72 has a hidden DC/Marvel crossover. Writer Steve Skeates has Aquaman battle a creature that explodes in outer space in Aquaman #56 (1971). Then in the last issue of Sub-Mariner #72 (1974) Skeates has the very same creature emerge in the Marvel Universe from an explosion in outer space. With this volume I have now read the entire run (#1-63) of Aquaman's solo series from 1962-1978. |
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Post by Hoosier X on Feb 14, 2021 23:44:14 GMT -5
Aquaman: Deadly Waters HC. Collects Aquaman (1962) #49-56. Written by Steve Skeates. Art by Jim Aparo. Cover art by Nick Cardy. Deadman back up in #50-52 by Neal Adams. Ocean Master. Black Manta. Aliens. And Aquaman trapped in another dimension. This story had it all. Atlantis in peril. Aquaman fighting on land & under the sea & in other dimensions. Old foes. Mera. Vulko. Aqualad. Tula. And a Deadman back up that tied into the main Aquaman story. Great stories and art. Aquaman #56 (1971) would be the last issue of Aquaman for 6 years. #57 would come out in 1977. Aquaman #56 and Sub-Mariner #72 has a hidden DC/Marvel crossover. Writer Steve Skeates has Aquaman battle a creature that explodes in outer space in Aquaman #56 (1971). Then in the last issue of Sub-Mariner #72 (1974) Skeates has the very same creature emerge in the Marvel Universe from an explosion in outer space. With this volume I have now read the entire run (#1-63) of Aquaman's solo series from 1962-1978. This sounds good. I have all those issues of Aquaman from the late 1970s. I’d like to get around to Silver Age Aquaman eventually. |
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Post by MDG on Feb 15, 2021 9:37:56 GMT -5
It's too bad no one ever thought to sit down with Kirby and Lee, separately, and go through the FF and Thor issue by issue to get their detailed memories of what they were each trying to do in that particular issue or story. Now that would have been something to read. As usual, comics "journalists" missed the most important, basic, obvious questions.As I've gotten more interested in the background history of the comics I love (mostly as a result of being part of this community for the last 15 years), I've been really frustrated by the lack of quality journalism and serious critical study available. My first love is popular music and in that field there is masses of high quality serious critical and historical evaluation, as you mention. I guess the lack of quality critical study is symptomatic of the lack of respect comic books have received from mainstream society historically. It's certainly better than it was. Things like The Secret History of Marvel Comics: Jack Kirby and the Moonlighting Artists at Martin Goodman's Empire and Marvel Comics: The Untold Story are getting there. But there is--understandably--a focus on creators. What I'd really like to see is more about the business decisions and forces that determined what would end up on the stands. What was going on in the DC and Marvel offices in the 60s and 70s?
The recent book on the DC Implosion had a good amount of this, but it was limited by its oral history format; it didn't come together as a cohesive story.
There's also a lot of info lurking in fanzine interviews and articles, but still room to put things together in a more comprehensive format.
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