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Post by Slam_Bradley on Feb 26, 2021 17:32:03 GMT -5
(...) I have no idea why this was considered a highlight of 1984. Pretty sure it was due to the art. As you noted, it's gorgeous - inversely proportional to the writing... I have to think that's it. Because the writing is really awful.
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Post by commond on Feb 26, 2021 18:38:01 GMT -5
As part of my reading for the 1985 Kirby Awards I read the Cloak & Dagger mini from 1983 that was inexplicably nominated for Best Finite Series. The inexplicable part being that, as far as I can tell, none of the four issue actually came out in 1984. I remember the book getting a bit of acclaim in the fan press at the time. I'm pretty sure I read this when it came out. I didn't buy it but my best friend, who also bought comics, did and I read his issues. I really only vaguely remembered it after almost forty years. I can see where this would have seemed like a big deal at the time. Forty years on, for me, it only holds up marginally well. The art, by Rick Leonardi & Terry Austin, is easily the strong point of the book. It has a modern feel that stands out among the books from the time. Not on par with the ground-breaking work we were seeing in some other books, but definitely interesting. The story though, just feels dated. It tries to walk a weird line between "social relevance" of the Denny O'Neil stripe and the social vengeance that we were starting to see from The Punisher at the time. The former felt dated by that time and moreso now and it isn't willing to go to the places that the latter would eventually go. At the time I'm sure it read better. And I recognize it's probably not fair to compare it to non-code books that were coming out of First or Fantagraphics or the like contemporaneously. And it's probably not fair to compare it to even some of the "Big Two" books that were garnering awards and nominations at the time. Mantlo was on Alan Moore...and never could be. I'm not trying to be overly critical. For a Marvel mini-series in 1983 this was pretty good and a reasonably serious departure for a Marvel super-hero book. But from 2021 it looks pretty dated. I think the 4th issue came out in January of '84. I guess it's the same quirk that allowed Crisis on Infinite Earths to win in 1985 and 1986.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Feb 26, 2021 18:55:30 GMT -5
As part of my reading for the 1985 Kirby Awards I read the Cloak & Dagger mini from 1983 that was inexplicably nominated for Best Finite Series. The inexplicable part being that, as far as I can tell, none of the four issue actually came out in 1984. I remember the book getting a bit of acclaim in the fan press at the time. I'm pretty sure I read this when it came out. I didn't buy it but my best friend, who also bought comics, did and I read his issues. I really only vaguely remembered it after almost forty years. I can see where this would have seemed like a big deal at the time. Forty years on, for me, it only holds up marginally well. The art, by Rick Leonardi & Terry Austin, is easily the strong point of the book. It has a modern feel that stands out among the books from the time. Not on par with the ground-breaking work we were seeing in some other books, but definitely interesting. The story though, just feels dated. It tries to walk a weird line between "social relevance" of the Denny O'Neil stripe and the social vengeance that we were starting to see from The Punisher at the time. The former felt dated by that time and moreso now and it isn't willing to go to the places that the latter would eventually go. At the time I'm sure it read better. And I recognize it's probably not fair to compare it to non-code books that were coming out of First or Fantagraphics or the like contemporaneously. And it's probably not fair to compare it to even some of the "Big Two" books that were garnering awards and nominations at the time. Mantlo was on Alan Moore...and never could be. I'm not trying to be overly critical. For a Marvel mini-series in 1983 this was pretty good and a reasonably serious departure for a Marvel super-hero book. But from 2021 it looks pretty dated. I think the 4th issue came out in January of '84. I guess it's the same quirk that allowed Crisis on Infinite Earths to win in 1985 and 1986. I thought that might be it...and it definitely was with Crisis. But Mike's puts the on sale date for Cloak & Dagger #4 as Oct. 11, 1983 and GCD has a similar date. So I don't know.
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Post by profh0011 on Feb 26, 2021 19:23:36 GMT -5
More books that weren't filed properly, a good excuse to re-read...
THE DEADLY HANDS OF KUNG FU #1, 2, 3 & ALBUM #1.
I was far more interested in the comics than the articles, but I did read some of the articles, and was surprised to find across the board they were FAR-better-written than anything in "DRACULA LIVES!".
Dick Giordano did some fabulous work on the first 2 installments of "Sons of the Tiger", although Gerry Conway's writing (story and dialogue) was nothing to brag about.
The "Master Of Kung Fu" episodes kept changing creative line-ups. It went from Steve Englehart & Jim Starlin, to Englehart & Alan Weiss, to Doug Moench & Paul Gulacy. I wish Weiss had done a LOT MORE!
The "ALBUM" (as far as I know, there never was a 2nd "annual" as mentioned) contained a 3-part story, "The Master Plan Of Fu Manchu", in which Iron Fist, Sons of the Tiger & Shang-Chi all separately get involved in the kidnap of 2 groups of UN delegates.
The IRON FIST chapter was by Doug Moench, Frank McLaughlin & The Crusty Bunkers.
The SONS OF THE TIGER chapter was by Chris Claremont & Herb Trimpe.
The MASTER OF KUNG FU chapter was by Doug Moench, Mike Vosburg & Dan Adkins.
There were 2 pages, a prologue & an epilogue, by Tony Isabella & John Buscema.
I've long believed Frank McLaughlin was going to become the regular IRON FIST artist, but his getting his own book was delayed, and as a result, he was replaced by Arvell Jones, Patr Broderick & John Byrne, in that order. Too bad, as I thought McLaughlin (who'd done JUDOMASTER for Charlton) was better than all of those guys.
Mike Vosburg wound up being the regular MOKF artist in DEADLY HANDS for awhile.
Crazy enough, the "ALBUM" was the 1st DEADLY HANDS issue I ever got my hands on. It was probably a good issue to "sample".
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Post by Cei-U! on Feb 26, 2021 19:59:46 GMT -5
Pretty sure it was due to the art. As you noted, it's gorgeous - inversely proportional to the writing... I have to think that's it. Because the writing is really awful. It was written by Tom DeFalco, so of course it was really awful. I've never read a DeFalco-written comic that wasn't.
Cei-U! I summon the bottom of the scripting barrel!
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Post by Ricky Jackson on Feb 26, 2021 20:56:10 GMT -5
Wow, no love for DeFalco. I confess to loving his Spidey and Thor as a youngster. I was even a big fan of Spider Girl and A-Next in my early 20s. I haven't re-read since the 90s. I'm almost tempted to go back and see if it's as bad as you folks claim, but I think I'll leave the memories alone
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Post by wildfire2099 on Feb 26, 2021 21:00:59 GMT -5
In the continuing reading of the 1985 Kirby Award nominees...Marvel Graphic Novel #14, aka Swords of the Swashbucklers. This book just perplexes the shit out of me. Not just how it got nominated for "Best Graphic Album" (because it's by far the weakest of the 4 that I've read), but what the thought process was in green-lighting this in the format in which it was published. Because this is not a book that in any way deserved the "graphic novel" treatment. Essentially what we have is a old fashioned space opera where "space pirates" from outer space who fight the "Colonizers" come to Earth through intense serendipity and end up saving the planet and saving the pirate queen Captain's shirt-tale relation who is turned in to a super-hero...because...science. Ultimately not a lot is settled because this is just set-up for a later Epic comics series. I'm willing to give some on the plot silliness because this is unabashed space opera and that's generally a very silly genre. But the scripting is pretty universally awful, even for Bill Mantlo, who would always be on the lower end of my "marginally acceptable" Marvel writers. Even leaving aside the pirate lingo, the Earth humans speak nothing like normal people speak. And it's jarring. Jackson Guice's art is generally okay. It's occasionally pretty good, particularly when it involves space scenes. But the printing honestly doesn't do it any favors and I feel it would have looked better on newsprint. If this were the first three issues of a fairly forgettable attempt by Marvel to produce something besides super-heroes it would be fine for what it is. But as a $5.95 ($15.00 in today's money) graphic novel it pretty much fails. And if it's one of the five best Graphic albums of 1984, that year was more dire than I remember. It gets REALLY weird later.. there's fairy magic, and the cat talks (but only sometimes). It's fun, but it definitely doesn't make any sense. I thought the graphic novel was a separate story from the Epic series? They reference it as background IIRC. also, Tom Defalco was great on Spider-Girl. His other stuff was ok, I mean, it's about as good as the 90s got, really.
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Post by commond on Feb 26, 2021 21:06:10 GMT -5
I think the 4th issue came out in January of '84. I guess it's the same quirk that allowed Crisis on Infinite Earths to win in 1985 and 1986. I thought that might be it...and it definitely was with Crisis. But Mike's puts the on sale date for Cloak & Dagger #4 as Oct. 11, 1983 and GCD has a similar date. So I don't know. I guess I got confused with the cover date.
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Post by Duragizer on Feb 27, 2021 1:03:45 GMT -5
Wow, no love for DeFalco. I confess to loving his Spidey and Thor as a youngster. I was even a big fan of Spider Girl and A-Next in my early 20s. I haven't re-read since the 90s. I'm almost tempted to go back and see if it's as bad as you folks claim, but I think I'll leave the memories alone I'm a diehard fan of the May "Mayday" Parker Spider-Girl. Her titles are pretty much my gold standard of what modern superhero comics should be.
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Post by spoon on Feb 27, 2021 9:12:22 GMT -5
I read Green Lantern #92-118, continuing my giant Green Lantern binge read.
The Denny O'Neil/Mike Grell team continues from the Flash back-ups, until Alex Saviuk takes over as the regular penciler with #100. Saviuk is workmanlike, to put it diplomatically. An issue where Grell briefly returns and a Joe Staton guest penciling job (#117, his first issue of GL) are far better. At this point, I'm hoping I get to some issues by a new writer. Recent issues have been solid, but rarely better (although the last few have been solid). Part of it may be the grounds rules of the series. It's basically a team book, with Green Arrow sharing cover billing and Black Canary also appearing in most issues. After being absent in #90-91, Itty comes back as well, although he's more like a pet. But the story arc where Itty transitions to the next level is pretty well-done. We even get Air Wave II as part of the group for a few issues. There are a couple of problems with this. The GL/GA/BC dynamic works well when you've got Neal Adams pencils, O'Neil trying new ideas, and interesting social issue-driven stories. But now it's Saviuk, O'Neil in a bit of a rut, and more generic tales (although bits of political/social commentary sometimes come in). The main problem is that to prevent GA & BC from being out of their depth, Green Lantern ends up written in a limited manner. He gets wacked on the head and knocked out a lot. Space adventures are also somewhat limited. With so many heroes, it also limits the supporting cast. Carol Ferris pops up occasionally, but it's unclear what the status of her relationship with Hal is. It's drifted off. Tom Kalmaku comes back for an issue, but that's it.
After his early job changes, Hal becomes a trucker, so he can be his own boss and fit in superhero duties. He also stores his truck in outer space (not kidding), which I find amusing.
One of the good early arcs during this period has Hal and Ollie working with Katma Tui, who gets more pages than any time in the past. Unfortunately, other alien GLs don't show up much otherwise. I wish the Guardians would show up less in exchange for other Green Lanterns showing up more. There are also a Tales of the Green Lantern Corps backup story and 3-part back-up with the Earth-2 GL (that has unfortunate Orientalist tones). It seems that like the backups were supposed to be permanent, but I think they got axed due to the DC Implosion. The issues with the backups had extra pages (a full-length lead plus the second story). Aside from an early Sinestro appearance and a Sonar arc and one Hector Hammond issue, O'Neil largely avoids the classic GL villains. Instead, we get the Mocker, the Crumbler, etc.
We also get John Stewart filling in on a mission when Hal suffers a mysterious illness. As you may know, Guy Gardner was the original Plan B when the ring chose Hal Jordan. Stewart was Plan C, but got elevated to B when Guy Gardner was injured in an accident. Well, in recent issues Guy Gardner is recovered and is summoned to fill in while Hal goes to Oa to deal with an apparently malfunctioning ring. Except it's not the ring . . . it's a defective power battery, which seemingly disintegrates Guy in a well-done trippy sequence. So Guy is apparently dead, and Hal goes to inform Guy's previously unseen and completely unmentioned girlfriend, Kari Limbo. Limbo is an odd pairing for Guy, who was a straight-arrow gym teacher at this point. Despite Guy's apparent death, Hal and Kari start flirting almost immediately . . . so I guess Hal's relationship is mostly off now??
I also took a break from the binge to read Marvel Fanfare #33. It's a Chris Claremont/June Brigman story that was going to be an issue in the Questprobe (computer game tie-in) limited series before it was ended prematurely. It was brought out from inventory after a couple of years, so this story appears to take place somewhere in the period of Uncanny X-Men #202-209.
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Post by The Cheat on Feb 27, 2021 14:26:07 GMT -5
Wow, no love for DeFalco. I confess to loving his Spidey and Thor as a youngster. I was even a big fan of Spider Girl and A-Next in my early 20s. I haven't re-read since the 90s. I'm almost tempted to go back and see if it's as bad as you folks claim, but I think I'll leave the memories alone Not a huge fan of his main continuity writing, but I agree that the entire MC2 line was great. Of course it's been 20 years, so no idea how well it'll hold up to me today.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Feb 27, 2021 15:01:59 GMT -5
Focusing a bit on my JLA Omnibus I bought way back... finally got to the first JSA crossover. It really is amazing how formulaic some of these are when you read a bunch in a row... no wonder Spider-Man was so revolutionary! I do like the Spaceman X story for some reason (I actually own a very beat up copy of the original one)... I feel like the bad guy is at least a bit creative, and we get some classic Super-dickery (He has to just orbit the galaxy for eternity? Harsh! That lecture Superman gave him is gonna stay with him).
The next one is the one with Giant Batgirl I think, which I read in the Batgirl showcase a bit back, only this time in color!
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Post by Hoosier X on Feb 27, 2021 16:56:18 GMT -5
The next one is the one with Giant Batgirl I think, which I read in the Batgirl showcase a bit back, only this time in color! I love that JLA Batgirl story! Queen Bee is DA BOMB! 💣
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Post by profh0011 on Feb 27, 2021 18:51:09 GMT -5
Green Lantern ends up written in a limited manner. Many years ago for the KLORDNY A.P.A. I wrote a 40-page article about the history of GREEN LANTERN (based on my relatively-limited experience & knowledge of it over a lot of years).
The gist of it was... DC had been SCREWING over the series for decades, and Denny O'Neil in particular had been SCREWING over Hal Jordan from the moment he first got involved... and that involvement wound up taking up decades, either as writer or editor.
For someone as anti-establishment as O'Neil was, and who had an open, admitted contempt for police, O'Neil had to be the LEAST-appropriate writer or editor imaginable to ever be involved in a series about a SPACE COP. From the word go, he set out to make Hal look bad, he had Ollie continually harp on how Hal was wrong about every single issue and situation, and as the years dragged on and on and on, he KEPT screwing the guy's life and both careers over relentlessly.
I lived thru the entire ACTION COMICS WEEKLY debacle as it was happening. As editor, O'Neil oversaw the senseless, pointless BRUTALLY-VIOLENT murder of Katma Tui... and it went downhill from there picking up speed as it went.
By the time Andy Helfer came back, it was a long, slow, painful uphill battle just trying to undo all that damage. And then Kevin Dooley, who I remember being a nice guy BEFORE he was ever hired by DC, let a promotion go to his head, and he turned into Denny O'Neil Jr. ON STEROIDS.
I swear, it wasn't until 15 years after that, with GREEN LANTERN: REBIRTH and the subsequent GL CORPS spin-off that the whole concept of the GLC finally began to be portrayed as it had always deserved, but until then, NEVER had been. And even then, Geoff Johns, who seems to be schizophrenic when it comes to his writing (he's alternately "fixing" characters, or, causing MORE new damage than anyone ever imagined before him) kept things from getting as good as they might, particularly when he began his interminably never-ending "Sinestro Corps" storyline.
I never would have imagined it... but the 2011 Ryan Reynolds film is my FAVORITE version of GL I have ever, ever seen. For the most part, THEY got it "right"! How in the hell did something THAT good bomb at the box office?
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Post by Batflunkie on Feb 27, 2021 18:59:08 GMT -5
Green Lantern ends up written in a limited manner. Many years ago for the KLORDNY A.P.A. I wrote a 40-page article about the history of GREEN LANTERN (based on my relatively-limited experience & knowledge of it over a lot of years).
The gist of it was... DC had been SCREWING over the series for decades, and Denny O'Neil in particular had been SCREWING over Hal Jordan from the moment he first got involved... and that involvement wound up taking up decades, either as writer or editor.
For someone as anti-establishment as O'Neil was, and who had an open, admitted contempt for police, O'Neil had to be the LEAST-appropriate writer or editor imaginable to ever be involved in a series about a SPACE COP. From the word go, he set out to make Hal look bad, he had Ollie continually harp on how Hal was wrong about every single issue and situation, and as the years dragged on and on and on, he KEPT screwing the guy's life and both careers over relentlessly.
I lived thru the entire ACTION COMICS WEEKLY debacle as it was happening. As editor, O'Neil oversaw the senseless, pointless BRUTALLY-VIOLENT murder of Katma Tui... and it went downhill from there picking up speed as it went.
By the time Andy Helfer came back, it was a long, slow, painful uphill battle just trying to undo all that damage. And then Kevin Dooley, who I remember being a nice guy BEFORE he was ever hired by DC, let a promotion go to his head, and he turned into Denny O'Neil Jr. ON STEROIDS.
I swear, it wasn't until 15 years after that, with GREEN LANTERN: REBIRTH and the subsequent GL CORPS spin-off that the whole concept of the GLC finally began to be portrayed as it had always deserved, but until then, NEVER had been. And even then, Geoff Johns, who seems to be schizophrenic when it comes to his writing (he's alternately "fixing" characters, or, causing MORE new damage than anyone ever imagined before him) kept things from getting as good as they might, particularly when he began his interminably never-ending "Sinestro Corps" storyline.
I never would have imagined it... but the 2011 Ryan Reynolds film is my FAVORITE version of GL I have ever, ever seen. For the most part, THEY got it "right"! How in the hell did something THAT good bomb at the box office?
Completely agree. I think Denny is a talented writer, but he was not a good fit for Hal at all (can't speak for Oliver because I don't know the character nearly as well). Just when Hal was coming back into his own in the 90's, they made him go crazy from grief and replaced him with Kyle who, much like Hal, took forever to come into his own as a character and was never given a chance by many who wanted Hal back
The 2011 movie was "okay", I mainly wanted to just see OA and the Lantern Corps on the big screen. I haven't watched it in some time, but the main plot beyond getting Hal up to snuff as a corps member felt very thin. Almost shoe-string like actually
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