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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2023 7:32:55 GMT -5
Ehhhhhhh..... So who is the "creator"... the person who does the first sketch, or names him, or the person who develops him over a period of time? I would argue that Thor, as an example, was not created out of whole cloth in his first appearance, but over several appearances, through story, characterization, supporting characters, and, yes, art. Right. Who created Wolverine? Roy Thomas, who came up with the name and the idea of a Canadian X-Man? John Romita, who designed the character's original look? Len Wein and Herb Trimpe, who wrote and drew his first appearance? Dave Cockrum, who modified Romita's design and designed his out-of-costume appearance? Chris Claremont and John Byrne, who named him Logan, gave him adamantium-laced skeleton, and provided the first hints at his backstory? Not every comic character's creation is as cut-and-dried as Siegel and Shuster's claim to Superman.
Cei-U! I summon the sticky wicket!
So true. Interesting. This reminds me of a debate I had with a friend after we watched the Transformers episode of The Toys That Made Us. I will presume people know their Transformers history here, but I think about how, as stated in that episode, toy company Takara released a certain toy, part of a line called Diaclone, but Hasbro acquired the rights to the toys. Hasbro then went to Marvel Comics and asked them to come up with a storyline to link all the toys. Comic writer/editor Denny O'Neill called that toy Optimus Prime. A guy called Bob Budiansky gave Prime a catchphrase - and made him leader of the Autobots. So, and I really hope I’m remembering correctly, my summary would be: Diaclone created by Takara Transformers developed by Marvel, based on a design by Hasbro Optimus Prime developed by Denny O'Neill, based on a design by Hasbro Creation? Extrapolation? Who did what? It’s an interesting and eternal debate.
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,190
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Post by Confessor on Jan 13, 2023 8:28:58 GMT -5
Carrying on with my New Year's "Classic Comics Resolutions" re-readings, I finished The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen: Black Dossier last night. The Black Dossier isn't really the third volume of the LoEG series – it's more like a sourcebook for the alternate timeline world the series is set in. Although there had been prose sections in the first two volumes of the series, here the majority of the Black Dossier is a scrapbook made up of non-comics material, such as letters, maps, guidebooks, prose stories, a Tijuana Bible, magazine clippings, etc. These sections are framed by a comic story – kinda like a story-within-a-story – in which Mina Harker and Allan Quatermain (who is now magically de-aged after bathing in the fires of youth, as featured in the novel She by H. R. Haggard) steal the Black Dossier itself from an MI5 facility and are then pursued by sinister government agents across late 1950's Britain. By this point in the story of the League, most of the characters we encountered in the first two volumes are long gone, leaving just Mina and Allan. The book's setting sees Britain emerging from under the heel of the fascist IngSoc government and the watchful eye of Big Brother, which originate from George Orwell's Nineteen Eighty Four, of course. One of the biggest differences between the Black Dossier and the first two volumes of the LoEG is that there are less public domain characters for Alan Moore to play with this time round, since the story is not set in the late Victorian era and thus can't utilise as many literary characters from that period. Moore gets around this by subtly changing names: so, for example, super-spy James Bond becomes Jimmy Bond, and The Avengers' Emma Peel becomes Emma Night (because Peel's maiden name in the TV series was Knight). In almost all instances though, it's pretty easy to see exactly who these thinly-veiled characters are supposed to be. The book is incredibly dense with literary and pop culture references – even more so that the preceding volumes of the series! – and among my favourite moments in the Black Dossier are seeing Moore's less-than-sympathetic take on James Bond, in all his creepy and misogynistic glory. Hilariously, when Mina first encounters Bond she is undercover and going by the name of Oodles O'Quim (as in Pussy Galore, geddit?). I also got a kick out of the scenes set in Birmingham spaceport, with cameos from Dan Dare and his companion Digby, during which, Mina and Allan escape in a robot-piloted rocket-ship that references Gerry Anderson's Fireball XL5. There's also a cameo appearance of an older and more forlorn "Billy" Bunter, which are strangely moving scenes (Bunter, a gluttonous schoolboy, was a tremendously popular fictional character here in Britain during the early 20th century). Mina and Allan eventually escape their pursuers by returning to the weird, utopian universe of The Blazing World – which Wikipedia tells me is from a 1666 work by English writer Margaret Cavendish. Once there, the pair are reunited with their mutual lover, Orlando (from Virginia Woolf's 1928 novel Orlando: A Biography), who can change sex from male to female at will. This final section of the book in the Blazing World is printed in old-school 3D colouring (and the book comes complete with 3D glasses) and is a particularly strange – even by Moore's standards – but nonetheless entertaining conclusion to the story. Overall, while it's not a patch on the first two LoEG volumes, or indeed some of the later instalments, I still find the Black Dossier to be an engaging and interesting work. I really enjoy the book-within-a-book concept and the level of world building that Moore conjures up here is quite remarkable. This is no mere "graphic novel", but something much more absorbing, paradigm-shifting, and, dare I say it, intellectual. At its heart though, the framing comic book portions present a thoroughly gripping pursuit narrative, in which Mina and Allan have to stay one step ahead of Bond and Night. It's not the best LoEG book, but it's very enjoyable nonetheless.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jan 13, 2023 10:31:12 GMT -5
Carrying on with my New Year's "Classic Comics Resolutions" re-readings, I finished The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen: Black Dossier last night. The Black Dossier isn't really the third volume of the LoEG series – it's more like a sourcebook for the alternate timeline world the series is set in. Although there had been prose sections in the first two volumes of the series, here the majority of the Black Dossier is a scrapbook made up of non-comics material, such as letters, maps, guidebooks, prose stories, a Tijuana Bible, magazine clippings, etc. These sections are framed by a comic story – kinda like a story-within-a-story – in which Mina Harker and Allan Quatermain (who is now magically de-aged after bathing in the fires of youth, as featured in the novel She by H. R. Haggard) steal the Black Dossier itself from an MI5 facility and are then pursued by sinister government agents across late 1950's Britain. By this point in the story of the League, most of the characters we encountered in the first two volumes are long gone, leaving just Mina and Allan. The book's setting sees Britain emerging from under the heel of the fascist IngSoc government and the watchful eye of Big Brother, which originate from George Orwell's Nineteen Eighty Four, of course. One of the biggest differences between the Black Dossier and the first two volumes of the LoEG is that there are less public domain characters for Alan Moore to play with this time round, since the story is not set in the late Victorian era and thus can't utilise as many literary characters from that period. Moore gets around this by subtly changing names: so, for example, super-spy James Bond becomes Jimmy Bond, and The Avengers' Emma Peel becomes Emma Night (because Peel's maiden name in the TV series was Knight). In almost all instances though, it's pretty easy to see exactly who these thinly-veiled characters are supposed to be. The book is incredibly dense with literary and pop culture references – even more so that the preceding volumes of the series! – and among my favourite moments in the Black Dossier are seeing Moore's less-than-sympathetic take on James Bond, in all his creepy and misogynistic glory. Hilariously, when Mina first encounters Bond she is undercover and going by the name of Oodles O'Quim (as in Pussy Galore, geddit?). I also got a kick out of the scenes set in Birmingham spaceport, with cameos from Dan Dare and his companion Digby, during which, Mina and Allan escape in a robot-piloted rocket-ship that references Gerry Anderson's Fireball XL5. There's also a cameo appearance of an older and more forlorn "Billy" Bunter, which are strangely moving scenes (Bunter, a gluttonous schoolboy, was a tremendously popular fictional character here in Britain during the early 20th century). Mina and Allan eventually escape their pursuers by returning to the weird, utopian universe of The Blazing World – which Wikipedia tells me is from a 1666 work by English writer Margaret Cavendish. Once there, the pair are reunited with their mutual lover, Orlando (from Virginia Woolf's 1928 novel Orlando: A Biography), who can change sex from male to female at will. This final section of the book in the Blazing World is printed in old-school 3D colouring (and the book comes complete with 3D glasses) and is a particularly strange – even by Moore's standards – but nonetheless entertaining conclusion to the story. Overall, while it's not a patch on the first two LoEG volumes, or indeed some of the later instalments, I still find the Black Dossier to be an engaging and interesting work. I really enjoy the book-within-a-book concept and the level of world building that Moore conjures up here is quite remarkable. This is no mere "graphic novel", but something much more absorbing, paradigm-shifting, and, dare I say it, intellectual. At its heart though, the framing comic book portions present a thoroughly gripping pursuit narrative, in which Mina and Allan have to stay one step ahead of Bond and Night. It's not the best LoEG book, but it's very enjoyable nonetheless. I'm a big fan of LoEG, particularly the first two volumes, but Black Dossier did almost nothing form me. I've only read it the one time and have never had any desire to go back to it.
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Post by berkley on Jan 13, 2023 12:15:33 GMT -5
Carrying on with my New Year's "Classic Comics Resolutions" re-readings, I finished The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen: Black Dossier last night. The Black Dossier isn't really the third volume of the LoEG series – it's more like a sourcebook for the alternate timeline world the series is set in. Although there had been prose sections in the first two volumes of the series, here the majority of the Black Dossier is a scrapbook made up of non-comics material, such as letters, maps, guidebooks, prose stories, a Tijuana Bible, magazine clippings, etc. These sections are framed by a comic story – kinda like a story-within-a-story – in which Mina Harker and Allan Quatermain (who is now magically de-aged after bathing in the fires of youth, as featured in the novel She by H. R. Haggard) steal the Black Dossier itself from an MI5 facility and are then pursued by sinister government agents across late 1950's Britain. By this point in the story of the League, most of the characters we encountered in the first two volumes are long gone, leaving just Mina and Allan. The book's setting sees Britain emerging from under the heel of the fascist IngSoc government and the watchful eye of Big Brother, which originate from George Orwell's Nineteen Eighty Four, of course. One of the biggest differences between the Black Dossier and the first two volumes of the LoEG is that there are less public domain characters for Alan Moore to play with this time round, since the story is not set in the late Victorian era and thus can't utilise as many literary characters from that period. Moore gets around this by subtly changing names: so, for example, super-spy James Bond becomes Jimmy Bond, and The Avengers' Emma Peel becomes Emma Night (because Peel's maiden name in the TV series was Knight). In almost all instances though, it's pretty easy to see exactly who these thinly-veiled characters are supposed to be. The book is incredibly dense with literary and pop culture references – even more so that the preceding volumes of the series! – and among my favourite moments in the Black Dossier are seeing Moore's less-than-sympathetic take on James Bond, in all his creepy and misogynistic glory. Hilariously, when Mina first encounters Bond she is undercover and going by the name of Oodles O'Quim (as in Pussy Galore, geddit?). I also got a kick out of the scenes set in Birmingham spaceport, with cameos from Dan Dare and his companion Digby, during which, Mina and Allan escape in a robot-piloted rocket-ship that references Gerry Anderson's Fireball XL5. There's also a cameo appearance of an older and more forlorn "Billy" Bunter, which are strangely moving scenes (Bunter, a gluttonous schoolboy, was a tremendously popular fictional character here in Britain during the early 20th century). Mina and Allan eventually escape their pursuers by returning to the weird, utopian universe of The Blazing World – which Wikipedia tells me is from a 1666 work by English writer Margaret Cavendish. Once there, the pair are reunited with their mutual lover, Orlando (from Virginia Woolf's 1928 novel Orlando: A Biography), who can change sex from male to female at will. This final section of the book in the Blazing World is printed in old-school 3D colouring (and the book comes complete with 3D glasses) and is a particularly strange – even by Moore's standards – but nonetheless entertaining conclusion to the story. Overall, while it's not a patch on the first two LoEG volumes, or indeed some of the later instalments, I still find the Black Dossier to be an engaging and interesting work. I really enjoy the book-within-a-book concept and the level of world building that Moore conjures up here is quite remarkable. This is no mere "graphic novel", but something much more absorbing, paradigm-shifting, and, dare I say it, intellectual. At its heart though, the framing comic book portions present a thoroughly gripping pursuit narrative, in which Mina and Allan have to stay one step ahead of Bond and Night. It's not the best LoEG book, but it's very enjoyable nonetheless. I'm a big fan of LoEG, particularly the first two volumes, but Black Dossier did almost nothing form me. I've only read it the one time and have never had any desire to go back to it.
I remember my feeling after reading it at the time was that Moore had tried to cram too much into one short book and that in so doing much of the satire came across to me as shallow and unsubtle, including the Bond bit. However, I do plan to re-read the entire LoEG series one of these days so I<ll see if I feel differently next time around.
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Post by Hoosier X on Jan 13, 2023 12:32:09 GMT -5
I love The Black Dossier. I read most of it when I first got it and thought it was great. But there were a couple of the text pieces that I didn’t really get into, so I had it for four or five years, and would skim through it a lot without reading the whole thing.
Anyway, I finally treated it like a novel and read it from start to finish over a week to 10 days.
The Lovecraft/Wodehouse cross-over story is brilliant. Maybe my favorite segment from the entire series.
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,190
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Post by Confessor on Jan 13, 2023 17:32:52 GMT -5
Carrying on with my New Year's "Classic Comics Resolutions" re-readings, I finished The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen: Black Dossier last night... I'm a big fan of LoEG, particularly the first two volumes, but Black Dossier did almost nothing form me. I've only read it the one time and have never had any desire to go back to it. I certainly don't think it's as enjoyable as the first two volumes, or the three Century volumes, but I definitely think more of it than the Nemo trilogy. Admittedly, the adventure/pursuit storyline that is told in comic form is rather slight from a narrative point of view, but it still grips me enough to keep me turning the pages (which is its job, of course). As for the rest of the book, I think I just find the level of world building that Moore engages in quite stunning in its complexity and depth. I do kinda find myself wondering at various points if I really needed to know all of this stuff (is the Black Dossier to the LoEG what The Silmarillion is to Tolkien's legendarium???). But as I say, the completeness and thoroughness of Moore's dedication to this fictional setting is quite remarkable. And besides, Moore's a good enough writer that he could probably write the ingredients from a cereal box down and I'd still find it pretty entertaining.
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Post by Hoosier X on Jan 13, 2023 22:56:25 GMT -5
I read the first few pages of Avengers #10.
THRILL to a four-panel battle between the Executioner and Paul Bunyan!
YOU’LL BE WOWED as Immortus transports Attila the Hun over the centuries into our own time and tutors him to speak very good English, probably with a New York accent.
Immortus can do ANYTHING!!
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Post by Hoosier X on Jan 14, 2023 0:02:41 GMT -5
Immortus is lame! For a guy who’s Lord of Limbo and Master of Time, Space and Dimension, he’s not very good at this.
He brings up Goliath of Gath to fight Giant-Man and the Wasp.
And here comes Merlin to fight Iron Man.
And here’s Hercules to fight Thor. (It must be some fake Hercules. Or maybe it’s the mortal Hercules, the king of Tiryns.)
And all of Immortus’s champions get beat within a few panels.
The Enchantress casts a spell sending them all back in time a few days. The Avengers forget all about Immortus. But the Masters of Evil remember!
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Post by Cei-U! on Jan 14, 2023 5:29:21 GMT -5
Immortus is lame! For a guy who’s Lord of Limbo and Master of Time, Space and Dimension, he’s not very good at this. He brings up Goliath of Gath to fight Giant-Man and the Wasp. And here comes Merlin to fight Iron Man. And here’s Hercules to fight Thor. (It must be some fake Hercules. Or maybe it’s the mortal Hercules, the king of Tiryns.) And all of Immortus’s champions get beat within a few panels. The Enchantress casts a spell sending them all back in time a few days. The Avengers forget all about Immortus. But the Masters of Evil remember! Depending on which writer you choose to believe, all the characters Immortus "brings through time" to fight the Avengers were either Dre Wraiths (Roger Stern) or Space Phantoms (Kurt Busiek).
Cei-U! I smmon the coin toss!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2023 6:09:06 GMT -5
And here’s Hercules to fight Thor. (It must be some fake Hercules. Or maybe it’s the mortal Hercules, the king of Tiryns.) I remember that story when it was reprinted here. Yes, that was definitely not the Hercules we later came to know, eh?
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Post by Icctrombone on Jan 14, 2023 6:56:15 GMT -5
Of the first 16 issues of Avengers. I feel the Immortus one was the weakest. Cap fighting the Avengers became he thinks they sold Rick out was inane.
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Post by kirby101 on Jan 14, 2023 9:13:41 GMT -5
The first 40 issues or so of Avengers was, for me, so forgettable. I didn't feel like it hit it's stride until the Buscema/Thomas team took over.
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Post by Hoosier X on Jan 14, 2023 9:55:37 GMT -5
Of the first 16 issues of Avengers. I feel the Immortus one was the weakest. Cap fighting the Avengers became he thinks they sold Rick out was inane. Why would the villain lie? Geez, Cap. But it’s not the worst. #14 is really really bad. #12 is not as bad ... but still pretty bad. I don’t know whose idea it was to treat the Mole Man as the major character discovery of the early 1960s. He is all over the place in early 1960s Marvel. (I do like the storyline in Tales to Astonish where he’s having a turf war with Tyrannus and it’s drawn by Bill Everett.) #11 is another big disappointment. I have to read that next.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jan 14, 2023 10:34:48 GMT -5
Noooo. I liked 12 a lot. Thor and Giant-man almost come to blows at the beginning.
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Post by Hoosier X on Jan 14, 2023 11:03:55 GMT -5
It’s been a while since I read #11. It’s as bad as I remember. But I did find one thing I really liked ... the Chic Stone inking!
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