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Post by Cei-U! on Jan 12, 2023 16:40:45 GMT -5
I have no problem with Stan being credited with co-developer on any of these. The problem, and it has great financial repercussions, is his claims of being the sole or main creator. When we think of Man-Thing, we think of Steve Gerber and Mike Ploog, who developed the comic into what made it a favorite. But Man-Thing was created by Gerry Conway, Gray Morrow, Roy Thomas and Stan Lee. That is why the "but Stan's dialog and editing" argument is irrelevant to the who created discussion. Ehhhhhhh..... So who is the "creator"... the person who does the first sketch, or names him, or the person who develops him over a period of time? I would argue that Thor, as an example, was not created out of whole cloth in his first appearance, but over several appearances, through story, characterization, supporting characters, and, yes, art. Right. Who created Wolverine? Roy Thomas, who came up with the name and the idea of a Canadian X-Man? John Romita, who designed the character's original look? Len Wein and Herb Trimpe, who wrote and drew his first appearance? Dave Cockrum, who modified Romita's design and designed his out-of-costume appearance? Chris Claremont and John Byrne, who named him Logan, gave him adamantium-laced skeleton, and provided the first hints at his backstory? Not every comic character's creation is as cut-and-dried as Siegel and Shuster's claim to Superman.
Cei-U! I summon the sticky wicket!
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Post by Icctrombone on Jan 12, 2023 16:48:29 GMT -5
Going in, the comic book creators pre late 80's knew that weren't going to receive any Money for creating these characters. I guess it didn't mean anything other than pride and possible future work. Once Marvel instituted a piece of future money for toys, movies and other media , it became a point of contention. I understand that Jim Starlin is being taken care of financially for use of Thanos and the other characters he created by Disney although it's not on the par of the money Robert Kirkman.
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Post by kirby101 on Jan 12, 2023 16:50:11 GMT -5
I think we are mistaken development with creation. And more to the point we are discussing Stan's claims of creation because he put his name as writer on the character's first appearance. I doubt Claremont and Byrne would have any legal claims for creation because they made Wolverine cool.
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Post by kirby101 on Jan 12, 2023 16:55:51 GMT -5
Going in, the comic book creators pre late 80's knew that weren't going to receive any Money for creating these characters. I guess it didn't mean anything other than pride and possible future work. Once Marvel instituted a piece of future money for toys, movies and other media , it became a point of contention. I understand that Jim Starlin is being taken care of financially for use of Thanos and the other characters he created by Disney although it's not on the par of the money Robert Kirkman. This isn't true, as I have said before, but it bares repeating, there were always some deals in comics for royalties. And Kirby and Ditko were promised them by Goodman. Who went back on his word. And as to why they didn't just walk, because they needed work.
And Ed Brubaker has said the "thank you check" they offered him for Winter Soldier was so small he refused it. And he wrote that in 2004.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jan 12, 2023 17:04:30 GMT -5
Going in, the comic book creators pre late 80's knew that weren't going to receive any Money for creating these characters. I guess it didn't mean anything other than pride and possible future work. Once Marvel instituted a piece of future money for toys, movies and other media , it became a point of contention. I understand that Jim Starlin is being taken care of financially for use of Thanos and the other characters he created by Disney although it's not on the par of the money Robert Kirkman. This isn't true, as I have said before, but it bares repeating, there were always some deals in comics for royalties. And Kirby and Ditko were promised them by Goodman. Who went back on his word. And as to why they didn't just walk, because they needed work.
And Ed Brubaker has said the "thank you check" they offered him for Winter Soldier was so small he refused it. And he wrote that in 2004.
Well, the late 80's guys signed legal contracts GUARANTEEING they would get the money. That's the difference. Kirby and the rest were lied to and maybe they were afraid to get a lawyer and challenge Goodman. Or maybe it was a handshake agreement. Always get it in writing.
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Post by kirby101 on Jan 12, 2023 17:06:20 GMT -5
Back to inking, one of the best inkers for Kirby was ....Kirby. He stopped inking himself, or sharing the chore with Joe Simon once he moved to Marv. And the economics didn't make sense to take time from drawing more books. Also he wasn't interested in doing it once his pencils told the story. But on illustrations and posters where he did ink himself, you can see a master of the medium.
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Post by tonebone on Jan 12, 2023 17:57:05 GMT -5
Going in, the comic book creators pre late 80's knew that weren't going to receive any Money for creating these characters. I guess it didn't mean anything other than pride and possible future work. Once Marvel instituted a piece of future money for toys, movies and other media , it became a point of contention. I understand that Jim Starlin is being taken care of financially for use of Thanos and the other characters he created by Disney although it's not on the par of the money Robert Kirkman. This isn't true, as I have said before, but it bares repeating, there were always some deals in comics for royalties. And Kirby and Ditko were promised them by Goodman. Who went back on his word. And as to why they didn't just walk, because they needed work.
And Ed Brubaker has said the "thank you check" they offered him for Winter Soldier was so small he refused it. And he wrote that in 2004.
I would love to know what creators who had "deals" for royalties in those days actually got royalties. Bob Kane carved himself out a shrewd deal, but, to my knowledge, was a complete anomaly at DC or Marvel, as would be anyone else who actually got royalty payments. I would be willing to bet it would be less than 10 IPs over the first 40 years of work-for-hire comics history. "Making a deal" is a whole different animal than "Keeping a deal". As Seinfeld would say...
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Post by Hoosier X on Jan 12, 2023 18:25:31 GMT -5
I love Avengers #8 so much. Kang just sort of waves his hand and Thor, Iron Man, Giant-Man and Cap are all prisoners.
And now it’s up to the Wasp, Rick Jones and the Teen Brigade to save the day!
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Post by Hoosier X on Jan 12, 2023 18:31:35 GMT -5
I forgot to mention something I noticed in Avengers #7.
Iron Man is disciplined for not replying to an Avengers alert in Tales of Suspense #56. He gets suspended from all Avengers activities for one week. (I’d think Stark would be happy for the vacation! Now if the bad guys would lay off attacking Stark Industries for a few days!)
They mention that he missed an important mission but they don’t say what it was!
There’s a missing Avengers mission from the early days of Earth’s Mightiest Heroes!
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Post by Hoosier X on Jan 12, 2023 19:00:11 GMT -5
Another bit I found amusing in Avengers #7 was the Executioner and the Enchantress visiting Zemo to join the Masters of Evil. Zemo says: My other two associates - the Radioactive Man and the Melter - are in the custody of the police.
Wait ... wasn’t there another one? What was his name?
The Porcupine! No, that’s not it. The Scarecrow, maybe? The Eel?
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Post by Rob Allen on Jan 12, 2023 19:44:54 GMT -5
When I read Kirby's Green Arrow stories from the late 50s I wasn't impressed by his inking. But I have to say that poster looks really good.
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Post by kirby101 on Jan 12, 2023 20:03:52 GMT -5
This isn't true, as I have said before, but it bares repeating, there were always some deals in comics for royalties. And Kirby and Ditko were promised them by Goodman. Who went back on his word. And as to why they didn't just walk, because they needed work.
And Ed Brubaker has said the "thank you check" they offered him for Winter Soldier was so small he refused it. And he wrote that in 2004.
I would love to know what creators who had "deals" for royalties in those days actually got royalties. Bob Kane carved himself out a shrewd deal, but, to my knowledge, was a complete anomaly at DC or Marvel, as would be anyone else who actually got royalty payments. I would be willing to bet it would be less than 10 IPs over the first 40 years of work-for-hire comics history. "Making a deal" is a whole different animal than "Keeping a deal". As Seinfeld would say... You are probably near the mark. But the point is, even in the Golden Age, royalties were not unheard of. Simon and Kirby walked over them, and Siegel and Shuster stared going up against DC in 1946 for them. So "they all knew it was only work for hire" trope is wrong. The only thing they knew was the publishers were usually thieving scum.
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Post by Hoosier X on Jan 13, 2023 0:12:03 GMT -5
I read Avengers #9, which is a pretty good one, the introduction of Wonder Man.
Now ... there’s a run of stories that are mostly not good. I guess #13 is OK. But #10, #11, #12 and #14 are a mess.
I’m going to soldier on. It gets good again with #15.
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Post by Cei-U! on Jan 13, 2023 5:29:47 GMT -5
Another bit I found amusing in Avengers #7 was the Executioner and the Enchantress visiting Zemo to join the Masters of Evil. Zemo says: My other two associates - the Radioactive Man and the Melter - are in the custody of the police. Wait ... wasn’t there another one? What was his name? The Porcupine! No, that’s not it. The Scarecrow, maybe? The Eel? Not sure if you're being sarcastic or not but, just in case, the missing Master was good old Nathan Garrett a.k.a. The Black Knight.
Cei-U! I summon the armored asshat!
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Post by Hoosier X on Jan 13, 2023 6:53:34 GMT -5
Another bit I found amusing in Avengers #7 was the Executioner and the Enchantress visiting Zemo to join the Masters of Evil. Zemo says: My other two associates - the Radioactive Man and the Melter - are in the custody of the police. Wait ... wasn’t there another one? What was his name? The Porcupine! No, that’s not it. The Scarecrow, maybe? The Eel? Not sure if you're being sarcastic or not but, just in case, the missing Master was good old Nathan Garrett a.k.a. The Black Knight.
Cei-U! I summon the armored asshat!
Poor Nathan Garrett. Not only did Zemo forget he ever existed but also he died fighting Iron Man and nobody noticed for two years.
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