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Post by wildfire2099 on Feb 16, 2023 7:45:27 GMT -5
I suspect I might be the only one, but, even though Harry Potter is far from my favorite franchise, I would take JK Rowling's writing over Moore most days.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Feb 16, 2023 8:42:46 GMT -5
Moore's utter disdain for modern culture is pretty obvious throughout this book, but his dislike of the Harry Potter franchise is especially glaring. As a result, there are quite a few pointed jabs at J. K. Rowling, to the point where it all begins to feel a little bit mean-spirited. I mean, I'm certainly no fan of Rowling's writing and I found the Harry Potter books to be pretty dire, sub-standard children's literature (much like Moore did, I suspect). But clearly her work resonates with millions of readers of all ages worldwide and brings tremendous escapist joy to a lot of people – especially children, so what's the harm? Moore is, of course, a much better and much more intellectual writer than Rowling, but with this as an absolute and unassailable fact (at least in my mind), I feel as if he really doesn't need to resort to taking cheap shots at her. Even making Potter himself the Antichrist feels like a swipe at Rowling. Frankly, it all smacks a little bit of jealousy IMHO. Agreed on all points. I would add that this mean-spiritedness, coupled with an utter lack of affection for the source material, made this book pretty unpleasant to me. There was no love to be found anywhere, no reason to care; the plot was trite, Orlando is a bore, Allan is a pitiful wash-out, and Mina is but a shadow of herself; other characters are self-absorbed monsters. And not even interesting monsters. As for the psychedelic Prospero, he felt like a self-serving stand-in for the writer. I'm usually a huge fan of Moore's writing, but when he fails he fails hard; 1910, The Killing Joke and this book I really could have done without. True, but it's a widespread trope in fantasy fiction: just stop taking your meds and everything will be better again. It's the doctors that keep you crazy. Scientology guru L. Ron Hubbard would be proud! For my part I couldn't actually rank them in any significant way; 1969 was below average but readable, with a certain Michael Moorcock vibe, but the other two I found just plain bad. 1910 was diet LoEG with more rape, and 2009 was essentially, as you say, the rantings of a cranky old man. Being a cranky old man myself, I can make up my own!
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Post by EdoBosnar on Feb 16, 2023 11:33:38 GMT -5
Superman vs. Wonder WomanAfter some work-related interruptions, and a brief detour to read Neil Gaiman’s Stardust, I got back to Adventures of Superman: Jose Luis Garcia Lopez and read this treasury book from 1977, which is featured on the cover of the collected edition. Most of the creative team is the same as in the Superman 3-parter from this same HC that I reviewed about a week or so ago, i.e., the writer is Gerry Conway and the artist is Jose Luis Garcia Lopez (PBHN), while the inks this time around are by Dan Adkins. A quick plot summary: the setting is Earth 2 during the Second World War (1942 to be precise). Both Superman and Wonder Woman, while helping with the war effort separately – Supes in the Pacific theater and WW in Washington, DC – learn about the Manhattan Project. Wonder Woman in particular is horrified by the idea of nuclear weapons and initially sets about destroying the facilities where they’re being developed. This leads to a throwdown with Superman. Meanwhile, the Axis powers are also trying to get their hands on the nuke technology, so that Baron Blitzkrieg and a super-powered samurai called Sumo are sent by their respective governments in Berlin and Tokyo to procure it by any means necessary. This leads to them tussling with our two heroes as well. Overall, this isn’t a bad story, but it’s not without its rather serious flaws. I liked that way it’s framed, like a classified US government report, and I also liked that the initial fight between Wonder Woman and Superman was some contrived mind-control situations, rather they were really at odds with each other. However, I didn’t like that after the initial tussle they decided to settle their differences with another big fight – on the Moon (?!). The resolution of their conflict, and WW’s justified horror over nuclear weapons, is rather unsatisfying as well.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Feb 16, 2023 11:37:55 GMT -5
I suspect I might be the only one, but, even though Harry Potter is far from my favorite franchise, I would take JK Rowling's writing over Moore most days. People like what they like...but that's one of the most "out there" hot takes I've seen in a long time.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Feb 16, 2023 11:43:06 GMT -5
Moore's utter disdain for modern culture is pretty obvious throughout this book, but his dislike of the Harry Potter franchise is especially glaring. As a result, there are quite a few pointed jabs at J. K. Rowling, to the point where it all begins to feel a little bit mean-spirited. I mean, I'm certainly no fan of Rowling's writing and I found the Harry Potter books to be pretty dire, sub-standard children's literature (much like Moore did, I suspect). But clearly her work resonates with millions of readers of all ages worldwide and brings tremendous escapist joy to a lot of people – especially children, so what's the harm? Moore is, of course, a much better and much more intellectual writer than Rowling, but with this as an absolute and unassailable fact (at least in my mind), I feel as if he really doesn't need to resort to taking cheap shots at her. Even making Potter himself the Antichrist feels like a swipe at Rowling. Frankly, it all smacks a little bit of jealousy IMHO. Agreed on all points. I would add that this mean-spiritedness, coupled with an utter lack of affection for the source material, made this book pretty unpleasant to me. There was no love to be found anywhere, no reason to care; the plot was trite, Orlando is a bore, Allan is a pitiful wash-out, and Mina is but a shadow of herself; other characters are self-absorbed monsters. And not even interesting monsters. As for the psychedelic Prospero, he felt like a self-serving stand-in for the writer. I'm usually a huge fan of Moore's writing, but when he fails he fails hard; 1910, The Killing Joke and this book I really could have done without. Moore clearly fails...see The Killing Joke (though even he says it's pretty bad). But, looking at J.K. Rowling as a person, and digging deep in to the subtext of Harry Potter, it's way beyond dire. And I say that as someone who tolerated Potter because my kids loved the series (thankfully they've outgrown that). Unfortunately my daughter-in-law hasn't outgrown it and I have to hold my tongue a lot.
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
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Post by Confessor on Feb 16, 2023 12:30:02 GMT -5
I have to say, I really like The Killing Joke a lot. I think it's right up there in terms of Moore's work. Not a Watchmen, V for Vendetta of From Hell level masterpiece, of course, but definitely up there. I'd put it on a par with Miracleman and the first two volumes of The League of Extraordianary Gentlemen.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Feb 16, 2023 12:37:47 GMT -5
Agreed on all points. I would add that this mean-spiritedness, coupled with an utter lack of affection for the source material, made this book pretty unpleasant to me. There was no love to be found anywhere, no reason to care; the plot was trite, Orlando is a bore, Allan is a pitiful wash-out, and Mina is but a shadow of herself; other characters are self-absorbed monsters. And not even interesting monsters. As for the psychedelic Prospero, he felt like a self-serving stand-in for the writer. I'm usually a huge fan of Moore's writing, but when he fails he fails hard; 1910, The Killing Joke and this book I really could have done without. Moore clearly fails...see The Killing Joke (though even he says it's pretty bad). But, looking at J.K. Rowling as a person, and digging deep in to the subtext of Harry Potter, it's way beyond dire. And I say that as someone who tolerated Potter because my kids loved the series (thankfully they've outgrown that). Unfortunately my daughter-in-law hasn't outgrown it and I have to hold my tongue a lot. I appreciated the soap opera aspects of Harry Potter, myself, but was pretty irritated by the series' often nonsensical and contradictory plots that apparently got a free pass from "serious" book critics. I was also annoyed when the same critics (who usually wouldn't be caught dead reading a fantasy book) praised Rowling's imagination when she was merely recycling old material that readers of Burroughs or Le Guin were pretty familiar with. As a person, I quite respect her; she overcame difficult conditions, then managed her IP in such a way that it hasn't yet jumped the shark. I may not be a fan of her work, but she seems to know what she's doing and she got a lot of kids reading books, for which I'm grateful.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Feb 16, 2023 14:16:40 GMT -5
Moore clearly fails...see The Killing Joke (though even he says it's pretty bad). But, looking at J.K. Rowling as a person, and digging deep in to the subtext of Harry Potter, it's way beyond dire. And I say that as someone who tolerated Potter because my kids loved the series (thankfully they've outgrown that). Unfortunately my daughter-in-law hasn't outgrown it and I have to hold my tongue a lot. I appreciated the soap opera aspects of Harry Potter, myself, but was pretty irritated by the series' often nonsensical and contradictory plots that apparently got a free pass from "serious" book critics. I was also annoyed when the same critics (who usually wouldn't be caught dead reading a fantasy book) praised Rowling's imagination when she was merely recycling old material that readers of Burroughs or Le Guin were pretty familiar with. As a person, I quite respect her; she overcame difficult conditions, then managed her IP in such a way that it hasn't yet jumped the shark. I may not be a fan of her work, but she seems to know what she's doing and she got a lot of kids reading books, for which I'm grateful. She's become one of those people for whom I can't separate the art and the creator. So she's joined Orson Scott Card and a few others there. I try not to begrudge folks who grew up with Harry Potter as a formative part of their life, but I just can't bring myself to look beyond that at this point.
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Post by Cei-U! on Feb 16, 2023 17:27:05 GMT -5
I have to say, I really like The Killing Joke a lot. I think it's right up there in terms of Moore's work. Not a Watchmen, V for Vendetta of From Hell level masterpiece, of course, but definitely up there. I'd put it on a par with Miracleman and the first two volumes of The League of Extraordianary Gentlemen. I agree. Killing Joke is far from perfect--the ending in particular is a bit of a damp squib--and I wasn't happy they made parts of it canon but as a standalone story I find it thoroughly entertaining. I think it holds up better than Miller's Dark Knight Returns, which feels seriously dated to me now. And, of course, there's the gorgeous Brian Bolland art. I'm happy I have it in my collection.
Cei-U! I summon the thumbs up!
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Post by wildfire2099 on Feb 16, 2023 21:52:11 GMT -5
I appreciated the soap opera aspects of Harry PotterShe's become one of those people for whom I can't separate the art and the creator. So she's joined Orson Scott Card and a few others there. I try not to begrudge folks who grew up with Harry Potter as a formative part of their life, but I just can't bring myself to look beyond that at this point. That's fair... I definitely feel that way about Card (though I still love his books, I won't ever buy one again)... I never looked that hard into Rowling's views for me to get angry about them because I just don't like her enough to get to into it.
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
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Post by Confessor on Feb 16, 2023 23:41:00 GMT -5
I have to say, I really like The Killing Joke a lot. I think it's right up there in terms of Moore's work. Not a Watchmen, V for Vendetta of From Hell level masterpiece, of course, but definitely up there. I'd put it on a par with Miracleman and the first two volumes of The League of Extraordianary Gentlemen. I agree. Killing Joke is far from perfect--the ending in particular is a bit of a damp squib--and I wasn't happy they made parts of it canon but as a standalone story I find it thoroughly entertaining. I think it holds up better than Miller's Dark Knight Returns, which feels seriously dated to me now. And, of course, there's the gorgeous Brian Bolland art. I'm happy I have it in my collection. Cei-U! I summon the thumbs up!
I've always thought it superior to The Dark Knight Returns, though I do enjoy that comic too. But I hear you on it not aging especially well. Bolland's artwork is always good, of course (I first encountered him in 2000AD when I was 9 or 10 years old), but he really knocked it out of the park with The Killing Joke. Even by his high standards, the art in that comic is in a class of its own.
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Post by Icctrombone on Feb 17, 2023 5:25:22 GMT -5
I have to say, I really like The Killing Joke a lot. I think it's right up there in terms of Moore's work. Not a Watchmen, V for Vendetta of From Hell level masterpiece, of course, but definitely up there. I'd put it on a par with Miracleman and the first two volumes of The League of Extraordianary Gentlemen. I agree. Killing Joke is far from perfect--the ending in particular is a bit of a damp squib--and I wasn't happy they made parts of it canon but as a standalone story I find it thoroughly entertaining. I think it holds up better than Miller's Dark Knight Returns, which feels seriously dated to me now. And, of course, there's the gorgeous Brian Bolland art. I'm happy I have it in my collection.
Cei-U! I summon the thumbs up!
What I'm going to convey might be blasphemous but I don't think DKR is particularly good. The last time I read it , it seem really wordy. It has so much dialogue in the early going that I put it down. And the concept that Superman would become a lacky and attack dog for politicians ,makes me sick. I could never buy that Batman could beat Superman. Not in ANY universe.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2023 6:18:15 GMT -5
Blasphemous, Icctrombone? Add me to the list. I’ve read it - twice - and it didn’t appeal to me, story-wise or art-wise.
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Post by dbutler69 on Feb 17, 2023 6:59:00 GMT -5
Blasphemous, Icctrombone ? Add me to the list. I’ve read it - twice - and it didn’t appeal to me, story-wise or art-wise. Ditto
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2023 7:01:52 GMT -5
Ah, three of us. A dastardly trio of heels or are there more?
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