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Post by Cei-U! on Feb 17, 2023 9:22:55 GMT -5
Ah, three of us. A dastardly trio of heels or are there more? Make that four.
Cei-U! I summon the quorum!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2023 9:40:16 GMT -5
We’ll be akin to wrestling’s New World Order soon. Wonder if there are any more?
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Post by spoon on Feb 17, 2023 10:08:31 GMT -5
We’ll be akin to wrestling’s New World Order soon. Wonder if there are any more? Yes, me too, with the caveat that the last time I read DKR was a long time ago. Miller's writing is a mixed bag for me. Aside from DKR, I thought Batman: Year One was terribly overrated. I don't have any interest in re-reading, except maybe if there was an organized discussion thread. I thought his original Daredevil run was good but not great the first time I read it, but when I re-read it, I really liked it a lot. I love Born Again, which is my favorite Miller work. I didn't like Man Without Fear very much.
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Post by EdoBosnar on Feb 17, 2023 10:37:29 GMT -5
Yeah, I think it's come up here before in other threads, but not being too fond of DKR doesn't seem to be a very radical stance. I also fall into that category, more or less: I think it's a pretty decent Elseworlds-type story, but that's about it. There's many aspects of it I didn't like. As for Year One, I think it's *really* overrated. My favorite work by Miller remains to this day his first run on Daredevil.
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Post by Hoosier X on Feb 17, 2023 12:33:37 GMT -5
The worst part about The Killing Joke is how stupid Barbara Gordon is. Not only is she Batgirl, she’s also a longtime Gotham City resident. Nobody opens the door without checking to see if it’s the Joker come to kill them.
I wasn’t even a Batgirl fan when I read it when it first came out. I still thought that scene was idiotic.
The worst thing about Dark Knight Returns is the media commentary. Conservatives get ridiculed with opinions that are pretty close to real conservative opinions. Liberals get ridiculed with strawman liberal opinions. (It’s nothing to be ashamed of. Both-siderist bullshit is with us today.)
Another one I don’t like is The Long Halloween. I don’t even know where to begin to pick the worst part.
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Post by MDG on Feb 17, 2023 14:25:02 GMT -5
With Dark Knight, Watchmen, and (to an extent) Killing Joke, personal reactions have a lot to do with whether you were reading it as it came out. (Could probably say the same about ZAP.)
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Feb 17, 2023 14:30:55 GMT -5
With Dark Knight, Watchmen, and (to an extent) Killing Joke, personal reactions have a lot to do with whether you were reading it as it came out. (Could probably say the same about ZAP.) The first three were a revelation when they came out. I loved all three at the time. I've done an about face on Killing Joke and have cooled a bit about Dark Knight (though I still think it's brilliant). I still find new stuff in Watchmen every time I read it.
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Post by MDG on Feb 17, 2023 14:36:30 GMT -5
With Dark Knight, Watchmen, and (to an extent) Killing Joke, personal reactions have a lot to do with whether you were reading it as it came out. (Could probably say the same about ZAP.) The first three were a revelation when they came out. I loved all three at the time. I've done an about face on Killing Joke and have cooled a bit about Dark Knight (though I still think it's brilliant). I still find new stuff in Watchmen every time I read it. I can see that--a lot of my opinion now has to do with what I was looking for out of comics then vs. what I'm looking for now. And it's gotta be 20+ years since I've read any of them, but there are still story beats and storytelling techniques in DKR that are textbook.
I don't know if I ever gave Watchmen a slow, thoughtful reading, and don;t know if I want to.
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Post by Ozymandias on Feb 17, 2023 17:03:31 GMT -5
Giffen inked Defenders #50 himself and it still looked quite Kirbyesque - he later admitted he had been doing a lot of swiping from the King. Kirby? Looks pure Trimbe to me.
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Post by Rob Allen on Feb 17, 2023 17:47:36 GMT -5
Giffen inked Defenders #50 himself and it still looked quite Kirbyesque - he later admitted he had been doing a lot of swiping from the King. Kirby? Looks pure Trimbe to me. Trimpe inked by Mike Royer, maybe.
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Post by Batflunkie on Feb 17, 2023 19:23:59 GMT -5
I feel like I've said this before, but personally, I like Rick Veitch's The One better as far as superhero deconstructions go
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Post by spoon on Feb 17, 2023 20:22:36 GMT -5
In the midst of my New Mutants binge read, I went chronologically background to read earlier appearances I just purchased: X-Men and the Micronauts #1-4 and Marvel Team-Up #149. X-Men/Micronauts slots in the timeline between New Mutants #13 and 14, but it’s first issue was published the same month as NM #12. I suspect the writing started several months earlier, because Rogue doesn’t show up at all and Magma isn’t in #1 with an excuse in the script about why she isn’t participating in a Danger Room exercise. Chris Claremont and Micronauts writer Bill Mantlo are credited as the writers, while pencils are handled by Micronauts artist Butch Guice.
The New Mutants appear in all four issues, with a subplot unfolding at Xavier’s mansion while the X-Men and Micronauts are in the Microverse. Illyana, not yet a member, appears in multiple issues. The little bit of New Mutants trivia here is that in #1 Danielle Moonstar is referred to by the codename Spellbinder. As far as I know that name was never used again. This was during the period before her Mirage codename was introduced but after Claremont had basically stopped using the name Psyche and only using her real name.
The plot centers around a villain called the Entity, who is actually the dark side of Xavier’s mind. I’ve heard that this is the same entity that appears in Uncanny X-Men #106 (a fill-in written by Mantlo), but the mini doesn’t reference that story at all. The Entity wear the armor that was sported by Xavier’s astral form in Uncanny #117. The whole Entity business is wild. In the Microverse, he tries to seduce Kitty, who unbeknownst to him is inhabited by the mind of Micronauts villain Baron Karza due to a mind-swap. Later, the Entity also takes over Xavier’s body on Earth. As he controls Dani’s mind, he notes that Xavier surrounded by “such pretty young playthings” that are “prey to [his] insatiable lusts.” Also, the Entity destroys a whole world in the Microverse, and the cover copy of #4 refers to “Dark Xavier!” In the end, the Entity is vanquished, but Xavier notes that the potential for re-emergence still exists in his mind. Yet there’s no reckoning with the fact that this creature was part of Xavier’s mind. Claremont loves moral conflicts between teammates, but no one expresses discomfort with Xavier afterward. Jim Shooter, who as EiC decreed that Phoenix be punished for her crimes, apparently didn’t consider Xavier destroying a world to be that big a deal.
I wonder how the writing chores were divided between Claremont and Mantlo. I suspect Mantlo was more involved because some aspects don’t feel so Claremontian. For instance, it seems like Storm gets the least dialogue of all the X-Men, and Colossus and Nightcrawler might also have more dialogue than Wolverine. I knew almost nothing about the Micronauts before reading this mini, and it doesn’t do much to stoke my interest. I’m curious about the timing of the mini-series. It ended just a few months before the ongoing Micronauts series ended, but then a new ongoing launched just a few months after that.
Marvel Team-Up #149 guest stars Cannonball. Cannonball is in Manhattan buying a hat as a present for his mother and happens to meet up with Spider-Man fighting a very forgettable villain. This issue slots into the chronology after NM #25 (the conclusion of the Cloak and Dagger arc). The creative team of Louise Simonson and Brett Blevins would take over New Mutants itself about 2 years later. Blevins’s distinctive style isn’t evident here, maybe because of the inking. It’s a really unremarkable story where no other team member appears. Cannonball notes that Xavier is sending money to Sam’s family, which also came up in a NM letter page, since Sam was the main breadwinner after his father died. Sam mentions saving up for a long time to pay for the hat, but I have no clue from my New Mutants reading what job Sam isn’t working at outside of his regular schooling and training at Xavier’s.
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,190
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Post by Confessor on Feb 17, 2023 20:24:04 GMT -5
With Dark Knight, Watchmen, and (to an extent) Killing Joke, personal reactions have a lot to do with whether you were reading it as it came out. (Could probably say the same about ZAP.) So true. I'm perfectly comfortable admitting that part of my love for The Kilking Joke comes from what a mind expanding watershed moment in comics it was for me personally at age 15 when I read it. DKR was also a bit of a mind bender back in 1986, but I have cooled a little on it since then. Still, there is a lot I still like about it. Watchmen was not something I read until the early 2000s, though I was well of aware of it at the time, of course. Coming to it late hasn't lessened its impact though. It's a f#@$ing masterpiece. An incredible comic that reveals new layers to me every single time I read it.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Feb 17, 2023 21:33:01 GMT -5
I read all three far after they came out, as I wasn't really intoc comics until the early 90s. I disliked Killing Joke right away... I've never read it again and doubt I ever will. Dark Knight Returns I've read a couple times, It's good for what it is, and I definitely appreciate it's historical signifigance. I don't love Miller's art, though. Watchmen, when I read it, I felt the way I feel when I read alot of old sci fi.. I appreciated what it was trying to do, but it felt dated and old to me. Perhaps I should go back and read it more carefully (I'd have to buy it first)... it didn't really capture my imagination or make me think anything special about it.
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Post by Icctrombone on Feb 18, 2023 5:47:02 GMT -5
Funny thing, I don’t care for DKR but I enjoyed the Year one and Killing Joke.
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