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Post by Batflunkie on May 5, 2016 20:07:37 GMT -5
Keep in mind that while I have no nostalgia in my soul at all, I tend to prefer the original version of the character... I thought Barry was the stronger character even if (on average) his book was slightly worse. He was a science nerd with a slight case of Aspergers, a really steady, focused and deliberate guy. He was unique in superhero characterization. Wally was Spider-man + the earth two Robin. Although I really like the current Flash TV show - which is about half Wally and half Barry. That might be about the perfect balance. I have no nostalgia for The Flash at all, I only really got interested in the character through the recent CW show. Silver Age Flash, considering the other books DC published at the time seemed more interested in being self-ironic parodies, is actually a fairly solid read that uses real world science and solutions; something that Spider-Man used to be about. Taking the element of "Shy, reclusive Bookworm who suddenly got arachnid based powers by total accident" away from Peter just kind of made the character seem stale and uninspired when compared to the numerous others, which I think is to great loss considering how well Marvel used to portray "incredibly flawed, yet still honest people turned vigilante"
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Post by dupersuper on May 5, 2016 20:45:38 GMT -5
Wally was the better Flash I think, and probably one of the better examples of a former kid sidekick being a great replacement for his former mentor. My only problem with Wally is that, unlike Barry, he really doesn't seem to have much going for him except being a former kid sidekick and former billionaire Take away that and he's just a everyday schlub that can run at an incredibly high velocity. You could probably replace him with a fast moving hobo and I don't think that you'd be missing out on much "billionaire"? That was some lotto jackpot...
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Post by dupersuper on May 5, 2016 20:46:57 GMT -5
To be fair, you take away everything different from anyone and they become generic. At least Wally seemed like a real person, Barry was always just another carbon copy middle aged white dude in longjohns, like Hal, Ray, and Oliver(pre-beard). He book was infinitely superior to Barry's (old or Nu52). Keep in mind that while I have no nostalgia in my soul at all, I tend to prefer the original version of the character... I thought Barry was the stronger character even if (on average) his book was slightly worse. He was a science nerd with a slight case of Aspergers, a really steady, focused and deliberate guy. He was unique in superhero characterization. Wally was Spider-man + the earth two Robin. Although I really like the current Flash TV show - which is about half Wally and half Barry. That might be about the perfect balance. Half Wally??? He's like the 4th or 5th most recurring supporting character who showed up several episodes into season 2...
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Post by Reptisaurus! on May 5, 2016 20:48:48 GMT -5
Keep in mind that while I have no nostalgia in my soul at all, I tend to prefer the original version of the character... I thought Barry was the stronger character even if (on average) his book was slightly worse. He was a science nerd with a slight case of Aspergers, a really steady, focused and deliberate guy. He was unique in superhero characterization. Wally was Spider-man + the earth two Robin. Although I really like the current Flash TV show - which is about half Wally and half Barry. That might be about the perfect balance. Half Wally??? He's like the 4th or 5th most recurring supporting character who showed up several episodes into season 2... Persoanlity-wise. Barry is a lot younger and a little bit smartassier than he was in the comics. I haven't seen season 2. (Hopefully it's still as great!)
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Post by The Captain on May 6, 2016 15:49:22 GMT -5
Reason #1,237 Why Marvel Needs to Completely Debunk The Notion Its Books Exist in a "Shared Universe":
In the current Doctor Strange series, a force dedicated to science and seeking the eradication of magic, known as the Empirikul and led by the Lord Imperator, has made its way to the prime MU and has captured or eliminated every magic user and has destroyed all of the "magic" that exists that can be tapped into in order to work spells.
In the most recent issue of Invincible Iron Man, Victor von Doom approaches Tony Stark's girlfriend at her lab, and when asked how he entered the secure location, he said he used a spell ("a little magic", as he called it) to do so. He was there to ask her as to the whereabouts of Tony, who had been missing for four weeks and was shown to be working undercover in Osaka, Japan.
In the most recent issue of Captain America: Sam Wilson, Tony Stark is shown sitting around a table with Steve Rogers, Maria Hill, Sam Wilson, The Vision, and Rogue, having a conversation of what to do in the aftermath of the "Standoff" storyline.
I love continuity, particularly as Marvel used to do it in the Silver and early Bronze Age and especially when Roy Thomas was in charge, but I've come to grips with the fact that Marvel wants to sell as many books as possible and as such, they want their prime characters in as many places at once as possible.
However, when they can't account for the fact that the Empirikul made no move on Doctor Doom despite his mastery of the mystic arts or that he was still doing spells when there is no magic force that even Stephen Strange can utilize or that Tony Stark was prominently and publicly in Pleasant Hill for "Standoff" at the same time he had been missing for a month and was working covertly on the other side of the planet, then they just need to say that each title takes place in its own bubble universe and that the Tony Stark in Invicible Iron Man is not the same one that is in International Iron Man nor the same one that is in Avengers and be done with it.
/frustrated old-school comic fan rant.
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Post by Batflunkie on May 6, 2016 16:03:44 GMT -5
I love continuity, particularly as Marvel used to do it in the Silver and early Bronze Age and especially when Roy Thomas was in charge, but I've come to grips with the fact that Marvel wants to sell as many books as possible and as such, they want their prime characters in as many places at once as possible. You perfectly surmised my exact thoughts on current Marvel
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Post by String on May 6, 2016 17:17:33 GMT -5
Wally was the better Flash I think, and probably one of the better examples of a former kid sidekick being a great replacement for his former mentor. My only problem with Wally is that, unlike Barry, he really doesn't seem to have much going for him except being a former kid sidekick and former billionaire Take away that and he's just a everyday schlub that can run at an incredibly high velocity. You could probably replace him with a fast moving hobo and I don't think that you'd be missing out on much That's what made Wally so unique, he is the first sidekick to achieve the promise of succeeding his mentor in the role. What you're missing is his own personal journey in that regard. From Baron to Messner-Loebs to Waid, Wally developed from a self-centered jerk to a mature, loving husband who overcame his fears of surpassing his mentor and friend & truly accepted his mantle. The fact that this occurred over a generation's worth of new readers who only knew Wally as the Flash magnifies this achievement. All of this wonderful character development got scrapped with Flashpoint as DC (in their brilliance) declared the newly-revived Barry as the only Flash. Which is so stupid. If you can have 3,600 different individuals with the exact same power due to the little glowing ring they wear, you can't have two people running around as the Flash?
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Post by Batflunkie on May 6, 2016 17:37:08 GMT -5
That's what made Wally so unique, he is the first sidekick to achieve the promise of succeeding his mentor in the role. What you're missing is his own personal journey in that regard. From Baron to Messner-Loebs to Waid, Wally developed from a self-centered jerk to a mature, loving husband who overcame his fears of surpassing his mentor and friend & truly accepted his mantle. The fact that this occurred over a generation's worth of new readers who only knew Wally as the Flash magnifies this achievement.All of this wonderful character development got scrapped with Flashpoint as DC (in their brilliance) declared the newly-revived Barry as the only Flash. Which is so stupid. If you can have 3,600 different individuals with the exact same power due to the little glowing ring they wear, you can't have two people running around as the Flash? You're right I haven't read that much of Wally, but what I have read, I've liked. Especially Born To Run which was utterly fantastic and up there with the other revised "Post-Crisis" origins. But yes, saying that someone is "the be all end all" version of a particular character is really close minded. Hal for instance, is considered the Green Lantern, even when there's a good handful of people of Earth that are more than worthy heirs to the throne
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Post by Roquefort Raider on May 7, 2016 14:19:52 GMT -5
Reason #1,237 Why Marvel Needs to Completely Debunk The Notion Its Books Exist in a "Shared Universe": In the current Doctor Strange series, a force dedicated to science and seeking the eradication of magic, known as the Empirikul and led by the Lord Imperator, has made its way to the prime MU and has captured or eliminated every magic user and has destroyed all of the "magic" that exists that can be tapped into in order to work spells. (...) However, when they can't account for the fact that the Empirikul made no move on Doctor Doom despite his mastery of the mystic arts or that he was still doing spells when there is no magic force that even Stephen Strange can utilize or that Tony Stark was prominently and publicly in Pleasant Hill for "Standoff" at the same time he had been missing for a month and was working covertly on the other side of the planet, then they just need to say that each title takes place in its own bubble universe and that the Tony Stark in Invicible Iron Man is not the same one that is in International Iron Man nor the same one that is in Avengers and be done with it. /frustrated old-school comic fan rant. You make a good point about the perils of a shared universe, Captain, and the same example could be used to deplore Marvel's use of completely nonsensical plots to generate a sense of peril. How can anyone "destroy magic"? Especially in the name of science? Science is a method used to understand how the univese functions. Clearly, in the Marvel Universe, magic functions. Science would therefore have to study it and understand it, not view it as an opposing force of some kind. The opposite of magic isn't science, it's ignorance. It Lord Empirikul wants to fight the good fight in the name of science, he should open a school and teach kids. (He should also change his name, because his current one is silly as can be)!
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Post by Batflunkie on May 7, 2016 15:15:52 GMT -5
You make a good point about the perils of a shared universe, Captain, and the same example could be used to deplore Marvel's use of completely nonsensical plots to generate a sense of peril. How can anyone "destroy magic"? Especially in the name of science? Science is a method used to understand how the univese functions. Clearly, in the Marvel Universe, magic functions. Science would therefore have to study it and understand it, not view it as an opposing force of some kind. The opposite of magic isn't science, it's ignorance. It Lord Empirikul wants to fight the good fight in the name of science, he should open a school and teach kids. (He should also change his name, because his current one is silly as can be)! Once upon a time, science was nearly indistinguishable from the black arts/magic. So in my mind, it's nearly impossible to have one without the other, which to say means that I don't think that they're in any way shape or form related to the other except in terms of historical context. If you showed a modern computer to 16th century puritans, they'd probably burn you at the stake then and there
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Post by thwhtguardian on May 8, 2016 15:51:40 GMT -5
Reason #1,237 Why Marvel Needs to Completely Debunk The Notion Its Books Exist in a "Shared Universe": In the current Doctor Strange series, a force dedicated to science and seeking the eradication of magic, known as the Empirikul and led by the Lord Imperator, has made its way to the prime MU and has captured or eliminated every magic user and has destroyed all of the "magic" that exists that can be tapped into in order to work spells. In the most recent issue of Invincible Iron Man, Victor von Doom approaches Tony Stark's girlfriend at her lab, and when asked how he entered the secure location, he said he used a spell ("a little magic", as he called it) to do so. He was there to ask her as to the whereabouts of Tony, who had been missing for four weeks and was shown to be working undercover in Osaka, Japan. In the most recent issue of Captain America: Sam Wilson, Tony Stark is shown sitting around a table with Steve Rogers, Maria Hill, Sam Wilson, The Vision, and Rogue, having a conversation of what to do in the aftermath of the "Standoff" storyline. I love continuity, particularly as Marvel used to do it in the Silver and early Bronze Age and especially when Roy Thomas was in charge, but I've come to grips with the fact that Marvel wants to sell as many books as possible and as such, they want their prime characters in as many places at once as possible. However, when they can't account for the fact that the Empirikul made no move on Doctor Doom despite his mastery of the mystic arts or that he was still doing spells when there is no magic force that even Stephen Strange can utilize or that Tony Stark was prominently and publicly in Pleasant Hill for "Standoff" at the same time he had been missing for a month and was working covertly on the other side of the planet, then they just need to say that each title takes place in its own bubble universe and that the Tony Stark in Invicible Iron Man is not the same one that is in International Iron Man nor the same one that is in Avengers and be done with it. /frustrated old-school comic fan rant. Eh, it happened even in the golden days of yore too, Roy Thomas did a lot to try and weave it together to make it feel cohesive but the continuity between books was still mostly imaginary even with those little notes in the corner and it's the same today. If you want it to make sense it's easy enough to come up with a solution where the different books fit together but in reality they are put out by different writers and artists who answer to different editors and they all work in different cities and sometimes different countries so intercontinuity isn't really possible all the time, nor should it take precedence either. For instance, if writer X feels action y would be great for his story they shouldn't shy away from it just because" well, what about what's going on Captain America?" unless of course wondering about how it might affect Captain America might enhance their story. On a separate note I just read Incredible Hulk #82 and I've decided that Jae Lee should draw every Hulk story...ever. What he draws is how I picture him in my mind; the Universal Frankenstein's Monster on steroids: "Dear Tricia..." is hardly your typical Hulk story(though I love those too) but is rather a delicate, subtle and moody love story ... that features the Hulk bursting through it like a bull through a china shop.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on May 9, 2016 8:21:49 GMT -5
I can't believe Jae Lee has been active for more than 20 years, now. I'll always partly remember him as the new kid on the block who tries to draw like Simon Bisley... but how that has changed! He's been doing amazing work for so long, now, and is still knocking it out of the ballpark.
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Post by berkley on May 9, 2016 20:29:19 GMT -5
Jae Lee is one of the very best contemporary superhero comics artists. I only wish he worked on more things that I wanted to read. However, I have the back issues of the Inhumans series he drew a few years ago and I will likely try the Avengers he did with Hickman recently. Hickman was pretty lucky in the artists he was assigned on that series - Lee, Opena, Leinil Yu, ....
I think he'd be one of the artists I might choose for a New Gods series - his style seems like it could be a good fit for dark, Apokoliptan settings and characters. And of course any kind of supernatural series - a ToD revival or The Demon, perhaps.
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Post by hondobrode on May 9, 2016 20:46:27 GMT -5
That Inhumans series was really good.
I like your idea for him on the New Gods !
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on May 10, 2016 4:42:59 GMT -5
He did draw a Hulk/Thing mini written by Bruce Jones. It was quite good IIRC.
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