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Post by dupersuper on Apr 5, 2016 22:43:19 GMT -5
Largely just due to my age, post-Crisis DC is my DC. I'd read and loved comics before I was 7/8, but got hooked on weekly comics with the beginning of the triangle era Superman books when I was 11/12, and slowly but surely got the back issues to Man of Steel (and earlier ones, but they weren't in "my" universe, I just couldn't pass up more Superman). There were problems, but generally well-handled (I wish Wonder Woman had still been a JL founder, but liked Black Canary as 1, I still liked All Star Squadron fine without the Earth 2 caveat, Power Girl as Arions Grand daughter was...odd, but it got the job done, I liked the pocket universe explanation for the LoSH - minus my ambivalence over Superman killing its Phantome Zone criminals, but even that gave us Exile, the Hawkworld thing was a mess, but that was years later and I just ignore it and put my copy with my year 1 type stuff).
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Post by chadwilliam on Apr 5, 2016 22:55:38 GMT -5
Hated the aftermath if for no other reason than for what it did to Superman. I think the fact that John Byrne didn't appear to be much of a fan of the comic character outside of his first few years (describing his motivation for doing the reboot as "scraping the barnacles" off the franchise) helps explain my belief that it was designed as "Superman for people who don't like Superman". That's sort of the problem I have with most reboots - it's great for those who want to buy comics starring a character they hate, but if you actually like these characters you're kind of screwed.
The only other character I feel strongly enough about to have an opinion on during this period is Batman and things are kind of complicated since it's hard to define what changes were made to him due to Crisis and what were made due to Dark Knight. Wow. I think almost the opposite. I have read from Byrne himself, that he loved Superman and loved the Movie version so much that he wanted to bring that version to the comic book pages. I though he succeeded. He did sort of " Marvelize" Superman, but I thought it was for the better.
As great as the first two Reeve films were (and the George Reeves show from which Byrne took his Clark Kent) the fact that Byrne looked outside of the comics themselves while denigrating key aspects of the legend ("When was Superman stupid enough to tell people he had a secret identity?", comparing his longing for Krypton to that of ungrateful adopted children seeking their birth parents, etc.) suggests that he possessed only a layman's understanding of the guy.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2016 23:24:25 GMT -5
For all the old school DC fans who are saying people had no trouble with the Multiverse, there were no problems needing to be addressed and Crisis was unneeded and the aftermath bad for DC, how do you explain that after Crisis DC's sales were higher than they had been for decades across the board, new (either from within or outside comics) were coming to DC for the first time in a long time, the company itself went from after thought to industry leader, talented creators were wanting to come work for DC above all the other options out there because of the creator friendly creative environment they saw happening where they could have some measure of creative freedom, most of the major evergreen stories DC has produced that have stayed in print for decades were produced in the first 5-10 years of the post-Crisis era, etc. Yeah it was a really bad time for DC, not.
I get personal preference and people who grew up with the Multiverse really like the multiverse. But all the actual evidence shows that for the publisher, Crisis was the right move at the right time to reinvigorate a publishing house that had fallen out of favor and had stagnated creatively in a lot of ways. Were there great books being published pre-Crisis, you betcha, but as a whole they were the exceptions to the DC line and not enough to make DC as a company relevant in the industry. Marvel was the mainstay and indy publishers like Eclipse, First etc. were getting the buzz and trendiness. Books we consider cornerstone books of the DC line like Detective and Wonder Woman were selling at levels where cancellation was a real possibility (Detective was almost cancelled in the 70s and only the terms of the agreement with the Marston estate requiring a book to be published for DC to maintain the rights tot he character was keeping the WW book alive). How much longer could DC have stayed the course with declining sales and relevance in the industry without doing something to alter their slow fade into oblivion.
For all the problems that there might have been, we got a lot of great stories and the company reversed the trend and became a powerhouse again. It later squandered those gains to be sure, and leaders less capable than Khan and Giordano tried to catch the lightning in the bottle of what Crisis did for DC again and again and again with hugely diminishing returns instead of coming up with their own solution and being innovators like Khan and Giordano were, but that doesn't diminish the impact Crisis itself had on DC when it was at its nadir.
Character/continuity wise, you can argue if it was good or bad, but on a business and publishing level it was absolutely necessary and absolutely the right thing at the right time for the company. And if the company didn't rebound, the characters and continuity wouldn't matter.
-M
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Apr 5, 2016 23:45:00 GMT -5
How much of that was crisis and how much was a major influx of talent from Marvel and from Great Britain?
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Post by tingramretro on Apr 6, 2016 1:18:24 GMT -5
It's a decent story with some gorgeous art by Perez, but the aftermath was godawful, especially for characters like Superman and the damage it did for ancillary properties like the Legion and the Hawks. It didn't do anything to the Hawks... |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2016 1:19:37 GMT -5
How much of that was crisis and how much was a major influx of talent from Marvel and from Great Britain? The talent coming to work under the regime that used Crisis to create a creative environment those creators wanted to work in. Both Khan and Giordano have talked about trying to recruit talent in interviews always getting polite declines until Crisis blew things up and made DC a spot where creators felt they could come and have the freedom to create what they wanted. So yes the talent was responsible for the upgrade, but the aftermath of Crisis was a very large factor in getting the talent to come to DC from Marvel and Europe. -M |
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Post by tingramretro on Apr 6, 2016 1:23:05 GMT -5
How much of that was crisis and how much was a major influx of talent from Marvel and from Great Britain? I think the British Invasion saved DC. Without the arrival of the 2000 AD boys, the company was fast running out of steam and would have continued to do so, Crisis or no Crisis. I think only Wolfman and Perez were keeping it afloat. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2016 1:26:08 GMT -5
How much of that was crisis and how much was a major influx of talent from Marvel and from Great Britain? I think the British Invasion saved DC. Without the arrival of the 2000 AD boys, the company was fast running out of steam and would have continued to do so, Crisis or no Crisis. I think only Wolfman and Perez were keeping it afloat. A lot of the influx of talent came because Karen Berger had made a recruiting trip to Britain to meet creators personally. She related in interviews she had wanted to make the trip since she had started working with Moore on Swamp Thing, but couldn't get approval of the trip before Crisis. With the influx of revenue because of higher sales of book after Crisis, the trip finally got approved-no Crisis, no recruiting trip, no influx of British talent to DC. -M |
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Post by tingramretro on Apr 6, 2016 1:29:23 GMT -5
I have always been primarily a fan of DC's Golden Age characters rather than any others, and I loved the pre-Crisis multiverse, but I still think Crisis was a great series and led to a great new approach for DC; I love the fact that after 1986, the JSA and their contemporaries were now regarded as the veteran heroes who'd inspired all the others rather than being relegated to supporting cast status on some intermittently seen other Earth. The post Crisis DCU was the one that really captured my interest after dipping in and out for years, because for the first time it seemed to have the cohesiveness and complexity that had previously drawn me so strongly to Marvel.
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Post by MDG on Apr 6, 2016 8:07:32 GMT -5
I was definitely for it before I was against it. When it became clear that they were getting rid of Earth-2 and the GA versions of Superman, Batman and WW, I really started to lose interest in the DC heroes. It also lost a big part of what made DC distinct from Marvel.
Since the stated big reason for Crisis was to simplify continuity to make it easier for new readers, which it didn't really do, it seems kind've a dumb idea.
I don't think I ever re-read Crisis after the initial books came out (or if i did, it was within a year of original release). It was less a story than a means to an end. Without the shock of "Who will live? Who will die?" there's really no reason to go back.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2016 8:26:36 GMT -5
I enjoyed the series, but didn't care for the result. Wonder Girl, LSH, All-Star Squadron, Power Girl, and eventually Hawkman all a continuity mess.
I missed the Helena Wayne Huntress and Earth 2 Robin. I didn't like the golden age Superman, Wonder Woman, and Batman never existing.
I did enjoy the Wonder Woman relaunch to a point. After a few issues, I tired of the all the Olympian gods melodrama.
I liked most of the Superman reboot, although I missed Supergirl and Superboy (who eventually returned). Was glad to see Ma and Pa Kent return to the series.
I loved Wally West as the Flash!
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Post by tingramretro on Apr 6, 2016 8:41:17 GMT -5
I enjoyed the series, but didn't care for the result. Wonder Girl, LSH, All-Star Squadron, Power Girl, and eventually Hawkman all a continuity mess. I missed the Helena Wayne Huntress and Earth 2 Robin. I didn't like the golden age Superman, Wonder Woman, and Batman never existing. I did enjoy the Wonder Woman relaunch to a point. After a few issues, I tired of the all the Olympian gods melodrama. I liked most of the Superman reboot, although I missed Supergirl and Superboy (who eventually returned). Was glad to see Ma and Pa Kent return to the series. I loved Wally West as the Flash! Hawkman's reboot had absolutely nothing to do with Crisis, the Silver Age version was still around for years after it ended. |
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Post by DE Sinclair on Apr 6, 2016 9:09:38 GMT -5
I think the poll should have had a 3rd option, because I have a love/hate relationship with it.
The series itself I enjoyed because I read it as it came out and it "felt" important and it was fun riding the suspense of what would happen next from issue to issue. As far as story structure, reading it later showed that it was kind of a mess, especially the last half. I mean, how many times did they have to beat the Anti-Monitor? He just kept popping up like those blow-up Bozo the Clown punching bags they used to sell in the comics.
As to the aftermath, I agree that the DC universe seemed revitalized afterwards. So many good things came out after that. Before COIE, I didn't buy that many DC comics because, particularly the Superman titles, so many were just dull. Afterwards, there seemed to be new energy, again due in part to the influx of new creators that came after COIE. Some characters were more available too. With the JSA/Captain Marvel/Charlton characters integrated into the main Earth, guest-starring appearances were much easier, without having to explain why/how they had jumped dimensions. But on the other hand, it gutted the JSA's WWII adventures in All-Star Squadron. So again, love/hate.
So I can't really pick either choice in the poll.
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Post by DE Sinclair on Apr 6, 2016 9:11:06 GMT -5
I enjoyed the series, but didn't care for the result. Wonder Girl, LSH, All-Star Squadron, Power Girl, and eventually Hawkman all a continuity mess. I missed the Helena Wayne Huntress and Earth 2 Robin. I didn't like the golden age Superman, Wonder Woman, and Batman never existing. I did enjoy the Wonder Woman relaunch to a point. After a few issues, I tired of the all the Olympian gods melodrama. I liked most of the Superman reboot, although I missed Supergirl and Superboy (who eventually returned). Was glad to see Ma and Pa Kent return to the series. I loved Wally West as the Flash! Hawkman's reboot had absolutely nothing to do with Crisis, the Silver Age version was still around for years after it ended. Yes, Hawkworld came out a couple years after COIE, and wasn't initially intended as a reboot. But the Crisis set the tone in the company that led to the editorial decision to declare it a reboot. |
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Apr 6, 2016 10:20:50 GMT -5
Hawkman's reboot had absolutely nothing to do with Crisis, the Silver Age version was still around for years after it ended. Yes, Hawkworld came out a couple years after COIE, and wasn't initially intended as a reboot. But the Crisis set the tone in the company that led to the editorial decision to declare it a reboot. Absolutely correct. Crisis ultimately rebooted Hawkman and in a very convoluted way |
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