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Post by tingramretro on Apr 6, 2016 11:00:57 GMT -5
Yes, Hawkworld came out a couple years after COIE, and wasn't initially intended as a reboot. But the Crisis set the tone in the company that led to the editorial decision to declare it a reboot. Absolutely correct. Crisis ultimately rebooted Hawkman and in a very convoluted way No, it is debatable whether Crisis had anything to do with the editorial decision to embrace reboots in 1989, but Crisis itself did not reboot Hawkman. In story terms it had nothing whatsoever to do with it. |
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Post by dbutler69 on Apr 6, 2016 11:24:55 GMT -5
I thought that the series itself was pretty good (especially the phenomenal George Perez art) but the aftermath was a disaster. They killed All-Star Squadron, and confusion was added, rather than removed, with many others, such as the Legion of Super-Heroes, Wonder Girl, Hawkman...Plus, I think the parallel earth thing was a great idea, and killing it and trying to squeeze everyone into the same earth was a bad idea, and not well thought out.
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Post by tingramretro on Apr 6, 2016 15:16:23 GMT -5
I thought that the series itself was pretty good (especially the phenomenal George Perez art) but the aftermath was a disaster. They killed All-Star Squadron, and confusion was added, rather than removed, with many others, such as the Legion of Super-Heroes, Wonder Girl, Hawkman...Plus, I think the parallel earth thing was a great idea, and killing it and trying to squeeze everyone into the same earth was a bad idea, and not well thought out. Again: Hawkman was not remotely affected by the Crisis. The Golden Age Hawkman was still in continuity, and appeared in various Roy Thomas scripted books. The Silver Age Hawkman was still in continuity, and got his own series shortly after Crisis ended. Neither impacted on the other. Not at all. Not until over three years later. This is a fallacy that really irritates me. Hawkman was not affected by Crisis. At all. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2016 15:26:25 GMT -5
I thought that the series itself was pretty good (especially the phenomenal George Perez art) but the aftermath was a disaster. They killed All-Star Squadron, and confusion was added, rather than removed, with many others, such as the Legion of Super-Heroes, Wonder Girl, Hawkman...Plus, I think the parallel earth thing was a great idea, and killing it and trying to squeeze everyone into the same earth was a bad idea, and not well thought out. Again: Hawkman was not remotely affected by the Crisis. The Golden Age Hawkman was still in continuity, and appeared in various Roy Thomas scripted books. The Silver Age Hawkman was still in continuity, and got his own series shortly after Crisis ended. Neither impacted on the other. Not at all. Not until over three years later. This is a fallacy that really irritates me. Hawkman was not affected by Crisis. At all. Except (as I pointed out before) as stated by the people running DC (i.e. Publisher Jeanette Khan and Executive Editor Dick Giordano)that they had a 5 year plan to address, reimagine and refurbish every character coming out of the Crisis planning and aftermath, they were just not doing it all at once, so there were plans to address Hawkman (and every other DC character) as part of the Crisis revamp-they were just waiting to get the right pitch for each character. It wasn't a 12 issue maxi-series, it was a 5 year publishing plan. So as much as you repeatedly state the Hawks revamp had nothing to do with Crisis, the people who were running DC at the time say otherwise and I tend to give them credence to know what their plans were or were not. -M |
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Post by String on Apr 6, 2016 18:22:31 GMT -5
CoIE itself was enjoyable, for me at least. The scale and scope of it may have fostered any flaws and dips in the story itself but kudos to Wolfman for taking on the challenge regardless. Frankly, it also remains among some of Perez's finest work. Plus, the deaths of Kara and Barry hit HARD back then and still resonate strongly to this day.
I voted for liking the Post-changes. I fall into the same camp as the others who've said that they only really started following DC after the changes began. Before Crisis, I only read sporadic DC titles but afterwards, I began following more titles and characters. The marketing campaign certainly helped on this front. The promotions of Crisis were exciting and the follow-up news of creators on the new titles only added to that excitement and curiosity. (For example, as a Marvel follower most of my childhood, upon hearing Bryne, one of my favorite Marvel creators, was revamping Superman, who wouldn't want to sample that?)
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Post by tingramretro on Apr 7, 2016 1:29:06 GMT -5
Again: Hawkman was not remotely affected by the Crisis. The Golden Age Hawkman was still in continuity, and appeared in various Roy Thomas scripted books. The Silver Age Hawkman was still in continuity, and got his own series shortly after Crisis ended. Neither impacted on the other. Not at all. Not until over three years later. This is a fallacy that really irritates me. Hawkman was not affected by Crisis. At all. Except (as I pointed out before) as stated by the people running DC (i.e. Publisher Jeanette Khan and Executive Editor Dick Giordano)that they had a 5 year plan to address, reimagine and refurbish every character coming out of the Crisis planning and aftermath, they were just not doing it all at once, so there were plans to address Hawkman (and every other DC character) as part of the Crisis revamp-they were just waiting to get the right pitch for each character. It wasn't a 12 issue maxi-series, it was a 5 year publishing plan. So as much as you repeatedly state the Hawks revamp had nothing to do with Crisis, the people who were running DC at the time say otherwise and I tend to give them credence to know what their plans were or were not. -M But it has always been pretty clearly stated that in Hawkman's case, there was originally no intention to reboot him, not until after the Hawkworld mini in 1989 proved successful and they decided to shift it from the past to the present day. Hawkman therefore cannot have been a part of that "five year plan". And if he had been, it would have been fairly stupid of DC to give the Silver Age Hawkman a new series in 1986! |
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Apr 7, 2016 2:48:10 GMT -5
Nope, got to agree with mrp. Hawkman was a 2nd tier hero for DC and their first priorities were re-establishing more important properties that had bigger potentials and were in creative ruts at that time. And those would be Flash, Justice League, Superman, Green Lantern and Wonder Woman in particular. Hawkman's turn just came later.
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Post by Paste Pot Paul on Apr 7, 2016 3:14:28 GMT -5
The way I see it is that for the first time in years many of their big guns were readable. Superman, Wonder woman, Flash, and Hawkman for a start quickly became the best they had been in years. Much as I love Curt Swan the Superman books had been dire for a long time(even Gil Kane only provided a brief respite), WW was godawful for years, as was the Flash book. Justice League had been steadily declining, and wasn't the only one, heck if Warlord was their bestseller for a while, with that stable of characters what does it say about the rest. Sure Bats stayed about the same, and GL IIRC, but in general it brought them kicking and screaming into the 80s.
Yeah I know that Moores swamp-Thing and a few other things happened but DC in general was on borrowed time.
Could it have been done better? Probably not. They didn't have a lot of lead time and obviously no-one thought out the ramifications of what it would do to certain properties, but on the whole it certainly gave their line the kiss of life it needed.
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Post by DE Sinclair on Apr 7, 2016 8:10:16 GMT -5
The way I see it is that for the first time in years many of their big guns were readable. Superman, Wonder woman, Flash, and Hawkman for a start quickly became the best they had been in years. Much as I love Curt Swan the Superman books had been dire for a long time(even Gil Kane only provided a brief respite), WW was godawful for years, as was the Flash book. Justice League had been steadily declining, and wasn't the only one, heck if Warlord was their bestseller for a while, with that stable of characters what does it say about the rest. Sure Bats stayed about the same, and GL IIRC, but in general it brought them kicking and screaming into the 80s. Yeah I know that Moores swamp-Thing and a few other things happened but DC in general was on borrowed time. Could it have been done better? Probably not. They didn't have a lot of lead time and obviously no-one thought out the ramifications of what it would do to certain properties, but on the whole it certainly gave their line the kiss of life it needed. One minor quibble would be with "they didn't have a lot of lead time". Interviews at the time and later have said that it was in the planning stages for at least a couple of years. You can see how far back things went just by the appearances of the Monitor & Harbinger in the comics as behind the scenes manipulators of both heroes and villains. |
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Post by MDG on Apr 7, 2016 8:57:59 GMT -5
The way I see it is that for the first time in years many of their big guns were readable. Superman, Wonder woman, Flash, and Hawkman for a start quickly became the best they had been in years. Much as I love Curt Swan the Superman books had been dire for a long time(even Gil Kane only provided a brief respite), WW was godawful for years, as was the Flash book. Justice League had been steadily declining, and wasn't the only one....but in general it brought them kicking and screaming into the 80s. Yeah I know that Moores swamp-Thing and a few other things happened but DC in general was on borrowed time.....on the whole it certainly gave their line the kiss of life it needed. True, but how about instead of blowing everything up, what if they just took the books in a new direction? Hell, they did it with Wonder Woman and Batman (twice!) in the 60s without missing a beat. And there was enough of a fan press by the 80s (as well as the comic shop network) to get the word out. |
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Apr 7, 2016 10:52:16 GMT -5
The way I see it is that for the first time in years many of their big guns were readable. Superman, Wonder woman, Flash, and Hawkman for a start quickly became the best they had been in years. Much as I love Curt Swan the Superman books had been dire for a long time(even Gil Kane only provided a brief respite), WW was godawful for years, as was the Flash book. Justice League had been steadily declining, and wasn't the only one....but in general it brought them kicking and screaming into the 80s. Yeah I know that Moores swamp-Thing and a few other things happened but DC in general was on borrowed time.....on the whole it certainly gave their line the kiss of life it needed. True, but how about instead of blowing everything up, what if they just took the books in a new direction? Hell, they did it with Wonder Woman and Batman (twice!) in the 60s without missing a beat. And there was enough of a fan press by the 80s (as well as the comic shop network) to get the word out. I think there was 2 reasons that they did the "big blow-up" vs how they handled things in the 1960s: In the 60s they were still the #1 publisher. The Superman line was the best selling comics in the US. At the time of Crisis, DC was falling farther and farther behind Marvel and besides Batman. just about every other superhero book was in bad shape-financially and so many creatively Blowing things up and making a big deal of the changes, milking it with a year long series and countless amount of tie-ins, helped by the fan press excitement, could send sales through the roof. |
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Post by berkley on Apr 7, 2016 11:30:41 GMT -5
I was never interested enough in the DCU to read it so I don't know enough to have an opinion one way or the other. However, I've been thinking I should look at it sometime just for the Perez artwork. is there a good, cheap collected edition or are the individual issues still the way to go?
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Post by DE Sinclair on Apr 7, 2016 13:43:23 GMT -5
I was never interested enough in the DCU to read it so I don't know enough to have an opinion one way or the other. However, I've been thinking I should look at it sometime just for the Perez artwork. is there a good, cheap collected edition or are the individual issues still the way to go? Amazon has it for $18.31. Don't know what the originals are going for. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Apr 7, 2016 14:17:01 GMT -5
I was wondering if my interest in DC was greater after the Crisis. Before the Crisis I bought :
Before 9
All Star Squadron
Batman
Batman and the Ousiders
Detective
Green Lantern
Infinity Inc
Justice League
New Teen Titans
Swamp Thing
After 15
Action
Adventures Of Superman
All Star Squadron
Batman
Detective
Flash
Infinity Inc
Justice League
New Teen Titans
Swamp Thing
Secret Origins
Spectre
Suicide Squad
Superman
Young All Stars
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2016 14:30:35 GMT -5
I don't deny that DC needed to do something to get attention. The Crisis did this. From fans & creators. And I did enjoy a lot of the DC titles post Crisis. But many of my favorite titles suffered after Crisis because of the changes. Hindsight is easy but I wish DC could have done some tweaks that allowed some of the pre Crisis stuff (like E2, Superboy) untouched.
And I know others at that time felt the same. I was working in a comic book store at that time. Overall they liked Crisis but lamented changes that damaged some titles. |
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