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Post by tolworthy on Apr 11, 2016 13:39:20 GMT -5
We may be forgetting that Stan was Roy's boss. Roy probably had to carry out orders from Stan that he didn't agree with. Marvel art director John Romita took a lot of flack from fans for redrawing faces on other artist's work, especially on covers. Romita said in an interview that he was carrying out orders from Stan and that he probably wouldn't have done it if the decision had been left to him. Jack probably viewed Roy as a sycophant but the reality was that Roy worked for Stan. Also, Jack was riding high at DC during this period and was getting a lot of demons out of his system. After all, he certainly would never be working for Marvel again.  Oh absolutely. I think Jack was doing what every creative person does toward the end of his career: he sees the young guys, and says "don't do it that way, do it this way, listen to me!" But that was Jack's experience, Jack's life, not Roy's life. The comics industry was changing (ironically thanks to Lee). Roy has done things his way and has, as far as I can tell, created a body of work to be proud of and been paid properly for it. It was Jack's place to criticise Roy because that was Jack's experience. And it was Roy's place to ignore Jack because that was Roy's experience. |
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Post by berkley on Apr 12, 2016 0:58:56 GMT -5
I think Kirby never really understood the whole culture that developed with that next wave of younger writers at Marvel - and to a large extent, they never understood him or his work either.
My impression is that it took years before even the now highly praised New Gods experiment received the kind of recognition it deserved. At the time, and for many years afterwards, it seemed that no one really knew what to make of it and whatever praise it did receive was more out of respect for Kirby's stature as co-architect of the MU rather than for the work itself.
And that's continued down to this day. If you look at what people have actually done, as opposed to what they've said (in interviews and introductions), the consistent response to Kirby's most innovative ideas, especially the New Gods and the Eternals, has been, "How can we make this more like the superhero comics we grew up reading and/or like to write today?" What a waste.
Kirby never had an equivalent to Stan's Roy Thomas at Marvel or DC so it's no surprise that that relationship would have been hard to understand for him. It seems to me that while he enjoyed a significant degree of autonomy - editing his own books, etc - he was at the same time rather isolated. His assistants were his assistants, they weren't also high-ranking players within the DC or Marvel editorial.
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Post by tolworthy on Apr 12, 2016 14:09:59 GMT -5
My impression is that it took years before even the now highly praised New Gods experiment received the kind of recognition it deserved. At the time, and for many years afterwards, it seemed that no one really knew what to make of it It does my heart good to see that a single movie based on Kirby creations can now make a billion dollars. And when DC want to emulate Marvel and make their own billion dollar franchise they turn to Kirby as well (see Darkseid, mother boxes, boom tubes, fire pits, etc.) Kirby is the colossus who stands above the entire industry. |
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Post by Rob Allen on Apr 12, 2016 17:29:58 GMT -5
I haven't been able to find a scan of the panel where Nick Fury name-checks the Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers. I think it's in Avengers #97. It's not really a jab, but it seemed strange at the time, and still does. Nick just doesn't seem like the comix type.
Also, I don't think DC minded when Stan called them Distinguished Competition; I think being called "Brand Ecch" bothered them. Back then, it was unheard-of for ads to mention competitors by name, so when a commercial showed a head-to-head comparison, the competitor was labeled "Brand X". So the name "Brand X" already implied inferiority, and changing the "X" to "Ecch" made it sound even worse.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Apr 12, 2016 17:34:35 GMT -5
I haven't been able to find a scan of the panel where Nick Fury name-checks the Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers. I think it's in Avengers #97. It's not really a jab, but it seemed strange at the time, and still does. Nick just doesn't seem like the comix type. Also, I don't think DC minded when Stan called them Distinguished Competition; I think being called "Brand Ecch" bothered them. Back then, it was unheard-of for ads to mention competitors by name, so when a commercial showed a head-to-head comparison, the competitor was labeled "Brand X". So the name "Brand X" already implied inferiority, and changing the "X" to "Ecch" made it sound even worse. I'll look when I get home. I just sold all my SA Avengers (sigh) but I've got Masterworks reprinting up 'till # 100. I'm pretty sure Hawkeye(?) name-checked Wonder Wart-Hog earlier in the run. |
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Post by String on Apr 12, 2016 20:26:12 GMT -5
From Excalibur #8 by Claremont and Davis, featuring Captain Britain:  |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Apr 12, 2016 20:46:41 GMT -5
I wonder how many times Clark and/or Lois actually appear in a Marvel comic...  |
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Apr 12, 2016 20:47:19 GMT -5
I haven't been able to find a scan of the panel where Nick Fury name-checks the Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers. I think it's in Avengers #97. It's not really a jab, but it seemed strange at the time, and still does. Nick just doesn't seem like the comix type. Also, I don't think DC minded when Stan called them Distinguished Competition; I think being called "Brand Ecch" bothered them. Back then, it was unheard-of for ads to mention competitors by name, so when a commercial showed a head-to-head comparison, the competitor was labeled "Brand X". So the name "Brand X" already implied inferiority, and changing the "X" to "Ecch" made it sound even worse.  |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Apr 12, 2016 20:51:02 GMT -5
I also feel this should be in there... even though I know we've talked about it before.. when Kyle Rayner meets his neighbors.  |
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Post by Farrar on Apr 12, 2016 22:09:06 GMT -5
I'll look when I get home. I just sold all my SA Avengers (sigh) but I've got Masterworks reprinting up 'till # 100. I'm pretty sure Hawkeye(?) name-checked Wonder Wart-Hog earlier in the run. Yep, it was in #50.  |
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Post by berkley on Apr 12, 2016 22:21:03 GMT -5
I also feel this should be in there... even though I know we've talked about it before.. when Kyle Rayner meets his neighbors. Nice to see a Doctor Strange reference but Green Lantern seems an odd character to connect with. Wouldn't Doctor Fate or Zatanna or someone have been more appropriate? |
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Post by Prince Hal on Apr 12, 2016 22:51:59 GMT -5
I also feel this should be in there... even though I know we've talked about it before.. when Kyle Rayner meets his neighbors. Nice to see a Doctor Strange reference but Green Lantern seems an odd character to connect with. Wouldn't Doctor Fate or Zatanna or someone have been more appropriate? I guess Kyle Rayner lived in Greenwich Village. |
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Post by berkley on Apr 13, 2016 2:11:25 GMT -5
Nice to see a Doctor Strange reference but Green Lantern seems an odd character to connect with. Wouldn't Doctor Fate or Zatanna or someone have been more appropriate? I guess Kyle Rayner lived in Greenwich Village. That reminds me - I thought DC used its own fictional DCU cities like Gotham and Metropolis rather than NYC. Was this GL story explicitly set in NYC or did they just leave it unsaid? |
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Post by Spike-X on Apr 13, 2016 4:37:32 GMT -5
I wonder how many times Clark and/or Lois actually appear in a Marvel comic... Apparently they've been there right from the beginning!  |
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Post by Cei-U! on Apr 13, 2016 7:23:31 GMT -5
I guess Kyle Rayner lived in Greenwich Village. That reminds me - I thought DC used its own fictional DCU cities like Gotham and Metropolis rather than NYC. Was this GL story explicitly set in NYC or did they just leave it unsaid? DC has used real cities as settings from time to time, dating all the way back to the original Manhattan-based Hawkman. The New Teen Titans and Firestorm were set in NYC; so was Wonder Woman in between long runs set in Washington DC. Post-Crisis, Mike Grell set Green Arrow in Seattle and George Perez set WW in Boston. So yeah, lots of precedents. Cei-U! I summon Rand-McNally! |
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