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Post by Dizzy D on Jul 21, 2014 8:54:40 GMT -5
The original Lee/Kirby run is actually one of my favourite runs on early X-Men and I'm always a bit annoyed that it's dismissed so easily.
Roy Thomas was really uneven storywise; I liked the Factor Three stories, but he also had Mekano, El Tigre and the Warlock (also having villains with hypnotic powers after each other was rather weak.)
Claremont's run is really the backbone of the entire series though and though I've liked runs since (Morrison, Seagle/Kelly, Casey, Carey (early run), Whedon, Aaron. All for different reasons) and still like most of the characters, his run is still the best (though one cannot dismiss the influence the artists/co-writers have had on his run. Without a Cockrum, Byrne, Smith and many others I don't think X-Men would ever have become that big a success.)
I do tend to be overly critical of Claremont's run, mostly because of the endless praise others have given him:I think I was like 10 when I read the marriage between Cyclops and Madelyne and even then I was aware that marrying a girl that looks exactly like your previous dead girlfriend is asking for trouble. And Magneto's trial was terrible. Also Longshot is one of my favourite Marvel characters, but he was so out of place in X-Men (and basically didn't do anything during that entire run. Also the X-Men's treatment of him was creeeepy. With at least 4 e's.) But as I said, overly critical.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jul 21, 2014 12:20:47 GMT -5
I hated the Brood stories and pretty much anything to do with the Shi'ar and the Starjammers. Space opera was fine for the FF and Avengers but it always felt imposed on the X-Men who (agreeing with shax here, gods help me) were thematically different from the other teams from inception. It's okay, buddy. The Brood, Shi'ar, and Starjammers stories were some of my absolute favorites from that era, so all is well with the world and the cosmic balance of agreeing to disagree is restored. |
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Post by bashbash99 on Jul 21, 2014 14:13:56 GMT -5
I started collecting x-men around 183. While I enjoyed what I was reading, I definitely felt a little in-over-my-head and quickly starting buying back issues and a TPB of the Dark Phoenix Saga. The Paul Smith and 2nd part of Cockrum's run were relatively cheap and easy to get, the byrne/austin issues were mostly too expensive for me at 12, altho I picked up issues from time to time, starting with the DOFP issues (the covers were awfully compelling!!). Later on classic x-men allowed me to finish most of the early cockrum and byrne/austin run (some the the bonus stories in the back were interesting, with art often by John Bolton (not to be confused with right-wing Bush guy).
My interest waned rapidly with the introduction of X-Factor and the subsequent Mutant Massacre plotline. Jean Grey was likely the most prominent "return from the dead" that I had encountered in comics up until that point, and it didn't sit well with me. I also hated her return's impact on Cyclops, turning him from a guy obsessed with his dead girlfriend to an outright heel. Didn't help that the X-factor series just didn't seem very good to me, even though I usually like both Layton and Guice's work. I also think that having X-factor on top of Uncanny and New Mutants led the way towards making the franchise a convoluted mess.
The Mutant Massacre felt like a shift in tone that led me to quit buying any mutant titles (aside from maybe Classic X-Men). I bought random issues here and there but always disliked what I saw and/or felt hopelessly lost. I did get back into the X-men with Morrison's New X-Men and later Astonishing X-Men by Whedon (and later Ellis).
To address the space opera comments above, since the Dark Phoenix storyline was pretty well-known and famous, it seemed inevitable that Claremont would return to space adventures at some point. I enjoyed the Shi'ar and Brood material as a departure from the norm but wouldn't count them among my favorite storylines.
I've seen some mention of Byrne, Cockrum, and Smith in this thread.. no love for John Romita, jr? How about the random Barry Windsor Smith issues?
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Jul 21, 2014 14:17:14 GMT -5
The original Lee/Kirby run is actually one of my favourite runs on early X-Men and I'm always a bit annoyed that it's dismissed so easily. I just thought the characterization was really, really weak compared to most of the other Marvel titles. Even the villains! Both the Avengers and the X-men had villain teams that paralleled the hero teams, but Zemo was so much more rich and interesting than Magneto. There were a couple great fight scenes - playing Keep-away with the Vanisher in # 2, vs. the Blob and carnies in # 3, the first Juggernaut fight... It wasn't BAD, it just paled next to the Fantastic Four. And then it turned truly horrible. Some of that stuff in the 30s and 40s is borderline unreadable. |
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Post by Dizzy D on Jul 21, 2014 15:09:55 GMT -5
It definitely isn't as good as their Fantastic Four run, but then few things are. I was never a fan of Avengers, that series never grabbed me on any of the creative teams.
And I agree on the 30s/40s being mostly terrible (Mekano, the Warlock, Tyrannus, (oh and I forgot one: Frankenstein's monster is actually an alien android...thanks, Roy!) but that is way past the Lee/Kirby run.
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Post by berkley on Jul 21, 2014 17:41:51 GMT -5
Giant-Size X-Men #1 to Uncanny X-Men #143 are still cutting edge after all these years and are the definitive X-Men to me. They represented the best in comics of the day imho.... There were other teams - Avengers, Defenders, Invaders, Champions etc...but this was the team I instantly loved. Visually stimilating in every way. Got to love Phoenix. And after 20 odd years, the stories still resonate, they still stick, hell, the last X-Men movie sorta relives Days of Future Past  berkley...the original comics are pricey, but the two Omnibus volumes are great alternatives. I own both, including the actual comics. Thanks for the suggestion. Since I still have most of my old X-Men comics, I think I'll just look for the appropriate issues of that Classic X-men reprint series someone mentioned to fill in the gaps. I was never a great fan of the Shi'ar either - an unattractive visual design, I always found. I thought the inking spoiled what I saw of Cockrum's art in his second stint on the series. |
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Post by pinkfloydsound17 on Jul 21, 2014 17:51:34 GMT -5
Funny that this forum is up and I just today picked up a near complete run from #101-173 including Giant Sized #1. I am trying to help someone sell it (since I cannot afford to buy it all now) but I have been reading through it and it truly is a fantastic run. I know we are not supposed to solicit selling on here but if anyone would like to give this run a good home, message away!
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Post by Hoosier X on Jul 22, 2014 13:53:02 GMT -5
I've been reading The Essential X-Men, Volume Three, and I've read the first few Neal Adams issues and I have to comment: WOW! Tom Palmer inks over Neal Adams penciling may be the best art ever. And I suspect that Roy Thomas may have given us the very best Sentinels tale ever!
This may be the best run of the X-Men. It's a lot shorter than the Claremont/Cockrum/Byrne era, but it seems pretty good so far.
Hopefully I'll take some time and write about this run in more detail later, but I have a few comments. In X-Men #57, the X-Men are standing in front of a collapsed Egyptian temple, discussing what to do about Scott's brother Alex (who has just discovered he has very destructive powers that he can't control). The local authorities (Egyptian police) show up and try to take them into custody (you know, for destroying an ancient Egyptian temple).
A fight starts. I can see why they don't want to be arrested and why they want to get away. But I don't really see why Cyclops felt it was necessary to yell:
You camel-jockeys did this!
at the Egyptian police. I know he's kind of distraught because Alex has run off, but that's no reason to unleash your inner bigot. It is a weird moment, especially at the beginning of a story about bigotry and the anti-mutant movement.
The same issue has a 5-page featurette with Marvel Girl explaining her powers. Pretty run-of-the-mill, except for the art. Werner Roth inked by Sam Grainger is breath-taking! The regular series could have greatly benefited from this combo. But what caused me to remark on it here is the very last panel. Jean Grey in street clothes looks so much like Famke Jansen! Cool!
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Post by paulie on Jul 22, 2014 15:34:36 GMT -5
I've been reading The Essential X-Men, Volume Three, and I've read the first few Neal Adams issues and I have to comment: WOW! Tom Palmer inks over Neal Adams penciling may be the best art ever. And I suspect that Roy Thomas may have given us the very best Sentinels tale ever!
This may be the best run of the X-Men. It's a lot shorter than the Claremont/Cockrum/Byrne era, but it seems pretty good so far.
Hopefully I'll take some time and write about this run in more detail later, but I have a few comments. In X-Men #57, the X-Men are standing in front of a collapsed Egyptian temple, discussing what to do about Scott's brother Alex (who has just discovered he has very destructive powers that he can't control). The local authorities (Egyptian police) show up and try to take them into custody (you know, for destroying an ancient Egyptian temple).
A fight starts. I can see why they don't want to be arrested and why they want to get away. But I don't really see why Cyclops felt it was necessary to yell:
You camel-jockeys did this!
at the Egyptian police. I know he's kind of distraught because Alex has run off, but that's no reason to unleash your inner bigot. It is a weird moment, especially at the beginning of a story about bigotry and the anti-mutant movement.
The same issue has a 5-page featurette with Marvel Girl explaining her powers. Pretty run-of-the-mill, except for the art. Werner Roth inked by Sam Grainger is breath-taking! The regular series could have greatly benefited from this combo. But what caused me to remark on it here is the very last panel. Jean Grey in street clothes looks so much like Famke Jansen! Cool!
I've never heard anyone comment that the art of Werner Roth is breathtaking but it has its charms. I think my favorite issue he did was the Spider-Man guest appearance in 35 with some pretty nifty Dan Adkins inks.
I especially like Sam Grainger inking anything and since we're on the topic... leaving the Cockrum-Grainger team off my list on the Classic Comics Christmas best pencil/inker teams a couple of years back was very difficult.
And yeah... Adams/Palmer is a pretty terrific team and those 9 issues they did are pretty darn good.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jul 22, 2014 19:11:09 GMT -5
Thanks for the suggestion. Since I still have most of my old X-Men comics, I think I'll just look for the appropriate issues of that Classic X-men reprint series someone mentioned to fill in the gaps. The Classic X-Men issues are a fantastic curiosity for the same reason that they don't necessarily make good run fillers -- many of the stories have been heavily revised by Claremont, the new pages done by inferior artists with visuals that don't really mesh with the rest of the story. It's an inexpensive solution for filling a run, but it has its drawbacks. |
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Post by Hoosier X on Jul 22, 2014 20:42:47 GMT -5
I read the end of the Thomas/Adams/Palmer Sentinels saga and I'm trying to figure out if it's brilliant in its simplicity or just-plain-dumb Silver Age silliness. (And sometimes, the difference is negligible.) I'm tending toward the former because the cold robot logic of the Sentinels has been stressed so often.
I'll not go into details. I don't know much about this era of X-Men and part of the joy in reading it is discovering the stories on my own. Any classic comics fans who haven't read Thomas/Adams/Palmer X-Men should be able to get the full effect.
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Post by Randle-El on Jul 22, 2014 23:27:37 GMT -5
Thanks for the suggestion. Since I still have most of my old X-Men comics, I think I'll just look for the appropriate issues of that Classic X-men reprint series someone mentioned to fill in the gaps. The Classic X-Men issues are a fantastic curiosity for the same reason that they don't necessarily make good run fillers -- many of the stories have been heavily revised by Claremont, the new pages done by inferior artists with visuals that don't really mesh with the rest of the story. It's an inexpensive solution for filling a run, but it has its drawbacks. I was under the impression that the revisions solely consisted of additional pages to fill in certain plot points -- I didn't think they actually changed the previously published pages. But then again, I don't own the original issues to compare so I've never done a side-by-side. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jul 22, 2014 23:47:27 GMT -5
The Classic X-Men issues are a fantastic curiosity for the same reason that they don't necessarily make good run fillers -- many of the stories have been heavily revised by Claremont, the new pages done by inferior artists with visuals that don't really mesh with the rest of the story. It's an inexpensive solution for filling a run, but it has its drawbacks. I was under the impression that the revisions solely consisted of additional pages to fill in certain plot points -- I didn't think they actually changed the previously published pages. But then again, I don't own the original issues to compare so I've never done a side-by-side. They do, sometimes moreso than others. The first issue, for example contains more revised panels than originals. Beyond that, I'd say it's an average of one to two pages, sometimes inserted as extra and sometimes replacing what was previously there. More frequently, dialogue is constantly changed. Sometimes it's as little as making early Wolverine say "Bub" instead of "Baby," and sometimes it's far more intricate. One of the revisions that fascinated me most came in the Classic X-Men version of X-Men #100, where Claremont revised things to have Sebastian Shaw and the Hellfire Club remotely directing the construction of the Sentinels instead of that enigmatic "Council" that we never ended up hearing from again. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2014 23:55:33 GMT -5
A fight starts. I can see why they don't want to be arrested and why they want to get away. But I don't really see why Cyclops felt it was necessary to yell:
You camel-jockeys did this!
at the Egyptian police. I know he's kind of distraught because Alex has run off, but that's no reason to unleash your inner bigot. It is a weird moment, especially at the beginning of a story about bigotry and the anti-mutant movement. I've always kind of rolled my eyes at the "The X-Men is really about racism!" comments I read online. It was originally a 100% white team. See? White people can be victims of systematic and widespread racial discrimination too! Why not just make it a black team if it was about racism? Some might say because it was the 60's, and comics didn't do that back then. Except they did, in EC comics, a decade prior, when they had tales of racism and the victim/hero/main protagonist would be an actual minority. |
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shaxper
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Posts: 22,864
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Post by shaxper on Jul 23, 2014 0:00:20 GMT -5
A fight starts. I can see why they don't want to be arrested and why they want to get away. But I don't really see why Cyclops felt it was necessary to yell:
You camel-jockeys did this!
at the Egyptian police. I know he's kind of distraught because Alex has run off, but that's no reason to unleash your inner bigot. It is a weird moment, especially at the beginning of a story about bigotry and the anti-mutant movement. I've always kind of rolled my eyes at the "The X-Men is really about racism!" comments I read online. It was originally a 100% white team. See? White people can be victims of systematic and widespread racial discrimination too! Why not just make it a black team if it was about racism? Some might say because it was the 60's, and comics didn't do that back then. Except they did, in EC comics, a decade prior, when they had tales of racism and the victim/hero/main protagonist would be an actual minority. The intolerance message was definitely an after-thought, though one that got explored meaningfully as early as X-Men #8, when a mob attacks the team for being mutants and Hank grows so disgusted with humanity's intolerance that he decides he's no longer willing to fight to protect them. It wasn't gutsy nor ground-breaking. There were far braver titles out there, but intolerance clearly did matter to Lee and Kirby in those pages. Likely, they were falling upon personal experience and thinking more about intolerance towards Jews (who could blend into crowds as ordinary looking American much as the X-Men did, but then unexpectedly get identified) than to those of other skin colors. |
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