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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2016 11:39:15 GMT -5
I don't have the impression that comics ever came back. They are not visible to mainstream culture, and Marvel and DC continue to print them more as movie promotion than for anything else. And, in a way, I think that's a good thing. It's allowing other smaller publishers to be the innovators that are capturing attention. And, when you're only competing for space on direct market shelves, it's a lot easier to get attention as well. So we're seeing unprecedented growth and exposure for non big two titles. If I didn't feel cover prices were absurd right now, I'd find this an exciting time to be in comics. Maybe Marvel and DC are headed for a crash once the movies dry out, but not the industry as a whole. Valiant, Image, IDW, Boom!, and Dark Horse will be very happy to fill the void. Except BOOM is already scaling back their print line because they are not profitable and the back room mumblings is several of the smaller publishers are making pans to follow suit. Unless you are an A-list name, it's getting hard to find a publisher who will take a chance on your creator-owned property. The general consensus is there are too many books out there for all of them to be viable-granted the big 2 are in large part responsible for that, but there is also a sense that there are too many smaller books out there for any of them to capture an audience big enough to make them viable. 5000 units a month is barely breakeven and there are books in the top 300 who do far less than that. For non-creator owned books, it seems page rates are dropping (again unless you are an A list of he A list talent) for everyone which is often a precustrosr for talent flight to other creative industries (as Joe Sinnott talked about in one of the videos I saw-when page rates dropped twice in the 18 months after the Comics Code took effect, several well known and lesser known artist left comics to go into advertising work (many never returned to comics, some did after they retired form advertising to do a freelance project here and there in the 70s)). That's not a recipe for innovation, it's pretty much the blueprint for publihers to get conservative and focus on the successful properties and known commodities among creators-oh wait that's Rebirth for DC, and it looks like DC is going to be the first to do it, not the only one to do so. -M |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2016 11:44:46 GMT -5
As for where will talent go-for writers it's already happening...
Brubaker-doing more elevision work despite his success in comics
Warren Ellis has more television work line dup than comics work for the next year or so and is adding more TV work all the time
Fraction and DeConnick, despite successful creator owned projects have started their own TV production/writing studio and are taking more writing work for that all the time
those are considered A-list names, but they are moving out from comics to make their living.
Not sure where the artists can g0-video game design maybe, movie design work, advertising is not the same game as it was back in the 50s to be a haven for fleeing artists.
I am not going to say crash, but there is change in the air if you look at what is happening behind the curtains of the industry.
-M
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
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Post by shaxper on Apr 16, 2016 12:11:17 GMT -5
I don't have the impression that comics ever came back. They are not visible to mainstream culture, and Marvel and DC continue to print them more as movie promotion than for anything else. And, in a way, I think that's a good thing. It's allowing other smaller publishers to be the innovators that are capturing attention. And, when you're only competing for space on direct market shelves, it's a lot easier to get attention as well. So we're seeing unprecedented growth and exposure for non big two titles. If I didn't feel cover prices were absurd right now, I'd find this an exciting time to be in comics. Maybe Marvel and DC are headed for a crash once the movies dry out, but not the industry as a whole. Valiant, Image, IDW, Boom!, and Dark Horse will be very happy to fill the void. Except BOOM is already scaling back their print line because they are not profitable and the back room mumblings is several of the smaller publishers are making pans to follow suit. Unless you are an A-list name, it's getting hard to find a publisher who will take a chance on your creator-owned property. The general consensus is there are too many books out there for all of them to be viable-granted the big 2 are in large part responsible for that, but there is also a sense that there are too many smaller books out there for any of them to capture an audience big enough to make them viable. 5000 units a month is barely breakeven and there are books in the top 300 who do far less than that. For non-creator owned books, it seems page rates are dropping (again unless you are an A list of he A list talent) for everyone which is often a precustrosr for talent flight to other creative industries (as Joe Sinnott talked about in one of the videos I saw-when page rates dropped twice in the 18 months after the Comics Code took effect, several well known and lesser known artist left comics to go into advertising work (many never returned to comics, some did after they retired form advertising to do a freelance project here and there in the 70s)). That's not a recipe for innovation, it's pretty much the blueprint for publihers to get conservative and focus on the successful properties and known commodities among creators-oh wait that's Rebirth for DC, and it looks like DC is going to be the first to do it, not the only one to do so. -M All great information, but I disagree with your interpretation. If the field is too crowded, that doesn't mean everyone's going to scale back forever; it means market survival of the fittest. Some titles and publishers will scale back and/or go out while that will ultimately leave room for others to grow stronger as a result. I think we're at one of those rare points in comic book history, much like the early 1960s, where truly no one is on top in the comic book world. The field may look crowded, but the stage is set for some serious shake-ups as a result. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2016 12:28:39 GMT -5
Except BOOM is already scaling back their print line because they are not profitable and the back room mumblings is several of the smaller publishers are making pans to follow suit. Unless you are an A-list name, it's getting hard to find a publisher who will take a chance on your creator-owned property. The general consensus is there are too many books out there for all of them to be viable-granted the big 2 are in large part responsible for that, but there is also a sense that there are too many smaller books out there for any of them to capture an audience big enough to make them viable. 5000 units a month is barely breakeven and there are books in the top 300 who do far less than that. For non-creator owned books, it seems page rates are dropping (again unless you are an A list of he A list talent) for everyone which is often a precustrosr for talent flight to other creative industries (as Joe Sinnott talked about in one of the videos I saw-when page rates dropped twice in the 18 months after the Comics Code took effect, several well known and lesser known artist left comics to go into advertising work (many never returned to comics, some did after they retired form advertising to do a freelance project here and there in the 70s)). That's not a recipe for innovation, it's pretty much the blueprint for publihers to get conservative and focus on the successful properties and known commodities among creators-oh wait that's Rebirth for DC, and it looks like DC is going to be the first to do it, not the only one to do so. -M All great information, but I disagree with your interpretation. If the field is too crowded, that doesn't mean everyone's going to scale back forever; it means market survival of the fittest. Some titles and publishers will scale back and/or go out while that will ultimately leave room for others to grow stronger as a result. I think we're at one of those rare points in comic book history, much like the early 1960s, where truly no one is on top in the comic book world. The field may look crowded, but the stage is set for some serious shake-ups as a result. There is one major flaw to the market survival of the fittest idea-Diamond and the direct market. They control what gets to market and what doesn't and they do so based on previous patterns of sales, i.e. what direct market sellers have traditionally bought. If Diamond decides you won't sell enough for them to carry, you are virtually cut off form the market for your product to have a chance. You can crowdfund or sell direct to customers at cons or via some kind of digital outlet (if they decide yo carry you but like Diamond it is not the product by the existing market pattern that controls access to the market. Diamond has already dropped a handful of publishers it carried even as recently as 2012 because they weren't moving enough total units. It's not whether your product is strong or good enough, or that the customers will decide that, it is Diamond that decides it before the book ever reaches market. And 60-70% of Diamond's business is Marvel/DC, and the more concentrated the sales are in publishers, the better it is for Diamond because it is less labor intensive and reduces their operating costs increasing their profits. In order for someone new to come in and shake things up, Diamond has to allow them to do that, and Diamond is about protecting their core business. To shake it up, someone would have to find a way to circumvent Diamond, the problem is that many (if not most) of the accounts (i.e. shops) serviced by Diamond do not want the additional work of dealing with a secondary distributor-if Diamond doesn't carry it, neither does our shop-exceptions sure, but not enough to have the ability to make a big enough splash to change the overall industry. Diamond's monopoly protects its own interests, and its interests are the status quo. Someone trying to change the market is not going to be able to get access to the market on any kind of large scale to effect that change and trigger the kind of survival of the market fittest you are talking about. -M |
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Post by tingramretro on Apr 16, 2016 12:37:44 GMT -5
Overreact Much? Why terminate your account here? Anyway, I am okay if comics fold altogether. I have enough of them to satisfy me until I pass away and the new stories being told are not so great. I have so many genres that I am just discovering ( Cerebus, Yojimbo). To me, I'm more into hard covers books such as DC Archives and Marvel Masterworks and other editions because of the problems of variants that been flooding the market in the past years or so. About cancelling my account here - In a year from now I'll probably be posting less and less and with my age approaching 60 my days of Comics maybe over by then. My Comic Book Store is a good hour drive from where I'm at and that's in heavy traffic and all and that's can be a bothersome experience for me. I've probably keep this account open and be a contributor now and then. My days of floppies and print comics maybe over sooner and get comics through Comixology more and more as I get older. I'm also a member of a site called Comics UK, dedicated almost exclusively to the British comics industry. At 46, I think I'm one of the youngest regular contributors there; the average age of the (quite sizeable) active membership seems to be 50-70. |
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Apr 16, 2016 12:43:17 GMT -5
I agree exactly with this. There's more good non-superhero product now than I've ever seen. Yeah, agreed. Not floppies so much, but the graphic novel boom of the last decade-or-so has produced an unprecedented degree of great, GREAT American comics. It has never been this good before. (But it won't last....) |
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Post by hondobrode on Apr 16, 2016 13:18:15 GMT -5
Like Icctrombone said, even if everything came to a crash tomorrow, I'd still have more than I could ever read in my lifetime, which is ridiculous really, but it is what it is.
We all have our vices / addictions.
I think I'm going to rename my tumblr blog 4 Color Monkey on My Back, now that I think about it.
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Post by Batflunkie on Apr 16, 2016 13:26:19 GMT -5
Except BOOM is already scaling back their print line because they are not profitable and the back room mumblings is several of the smaller publishers are making pans to follow suit There were also some speculations/rumors earlier this week about how horribly all the staff at BOOM! are treated by upper-management, so that won't help them much either I'm also a member of a site caled Comics UK, dedicated almost exclusively to the British comics industry. At 46, I think I'm one of the youngest regular contributors there; the average age of the (quite sizeable) active membership seems to be 50-70. I wish British comics were a bit more diverse like the were back in their heyday, because all we really have is The Beano and 2000 AD. Monster Fun is one of my personal favorites and it's kind of appalling how short of a run it had I also understand where you're comic from on the large age gap, I'm 26 and more than half the members on here are probably old enough to be my parents |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2016 14:59:35 GMT -5
To me, I'm more into hard covers books such as DC Archives and Marvel Masterworks and other editions because of the problems of variants that been flooding the market in the past years or so. About cancelling my account here - In a year from now I'll probably be posting less and less and with my age approaching 60 my days of Comics maybe over by then. My Comic Book Store is a good hour drive from where I'm at and that's in heavy traffic and all and that's can be a bothersome experience for me. I've probably keep this account open and be a contributor now and then. My days of floppies and print comics maybe over sooner and get comics through Comixology more and more as I get older. I'm also a member of a site caled Comics UK, dedicated almost exclusively to the British comics industry. At 46, I think I'm one of the youngest regular contributors there; the average age of the (quite sizeable) active membership seems to be 50-70. Congratulations on your 1000th post and I decided to stick around for the duration and I've may be contributing when the situation warrants it. I was shocked to read about your membership of a site called Comic UK and the average age - active-wise seems to be 50-70 and I was taken back by all that. Thanks for pointing it out tingramretro! So, everyone ... I decided not to cancel my account here. |
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Post by Action Ace on Apr 17, 2016 0:07:18 GMT -5
It sure has survived a lot longer than many people thought. It has survived, to date, losing most of it's outlets in the 1990s, the rise of manga and digital, a severe economic downturn, even Bob Harras and can still get thousands of people to go the shop every Wednesday and plunk down $3.99 for a 20 page comic. It's not clear, after three decades, how it will all end. A slow fade until it's not sustainable any more? A bean counter at Disney or Warner Brothers decides a comic company just isn't worth the trouble anymore? Another big economic downturn? What is clear is that it's continued survival sticks in the craw of many in the hobby, such as Alan David Doane, that are hoping, wishing and openly rooting for it to die. edit: A.D.D. wrote that in 2005? Wow time flies! |
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Post by tingramretro on Apr 17, 2016 5:12:41 GMT -5
Except BOOM is already scaling back their print line because they are not profitable and the back room mumblings is several of the smaller publishers are making pans to follow suit There were also some speculations/rumors earlier this week about how horribly all the staff at BOOM! are treated by upper-management, so that won't help them much either I'm also a member of a site caled Comics UK, dedicated almost exclusively to the British comics industry. At 46, I think I'm one of the youngest regular contributors there; the average age of the (quite sizeable) active membership seems to be 50-70. I wish British comics were a bit more diverse like the were back in their heyday, because all we really have is The Beano and 2000 AD. Monster Fun is one of my personal favorites and it's kind of appalling how short of a run it had I also understand where you're comic from on the large age gap, I'm 26 and more than half the members on here are probably old enough to be my parents Well, Commando is still running (55 years, now, and counting) as is the Judge Dredd Megazine, and Titan Comics are doing pretty well with their line, even if most of them can only be found in comics shops ( Doctor Who: Tales from the TARDIS is available in WH Smiths). Then there's Doctor Who Adventures and Doctor Who Magazine (which is admittedly more magazine than comic, but the strip is still a regular feature) and the Phoenix Comic (though I think that's now subscription only). And of course, there are a wide range of licensed titles for younger readers, plus the American DC and Marvel reprints from Titan and Panini, which from a financial viewpoint are actually better value than the imported originals. But I take your point; the glory days of DC Thomson and IPC (amongst many others) are long since over. |
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Post by dupersuper on Apr 19, 2016 9:02:33 GMT -5
Hell, when I mention to non-fans what I do, 9 times out of ten the reaction is "They still make comic books?" Cei-U! I summon the punchline! This makes me sad.  It makes me surprised, given 2 of the most popular shows right now are Big Bang Theory (with frequent scenes in a comic store) and Walking Dead (a show based on an ongoing comic, followed by Talking Dead in which they often talk about the comics, then, y'know, Comic Book Men). For that matter, Comic Book Guy's still on Simpsons, the kid on Once Upon a Time reads comics, Archie Digests are still at supermarket checkouts, graphic novels and Manga get whole sections at book stores... |
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Post by String on Apr 19, 2016 18:52:53 GMT -5
As for where will talent go-for writers it's already happening... Brubaker-doing more elevision work despite his success in comics Warren Ellis has more television work line dup than comics work for the next year or so and is adding more TV work all the time Fraction and DeConnick, despite successful creator owned projects have started their own TV production/writing studio and are taking more writing work for that all the time those are considered A-list names, but they are moving out from comics to make their living. Not sure where the artists can g0-video game design maybe, movie design work, advertising is not the same game as it was back in the 50s to be a haven for fleeing artists. I am not going to say crash, but there is change in the air if you look at what is happening behind the curtains of the industry. -M I'm not at all up to date on all the current or 'fad' TV shows but could you provide any examples of shows that the creators you've mentioned having worked on or for? The only prominent creator that I can think of immediately that made a successful jump to TV is Brian K Vaughn. Video game design may be a possibility. The best example that comes to mind is Joe Mad(ureira). He's made quite the impact (and money) from the Darksiders' growing franchise. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2016 19:06:47 GMT -5
As for where will talent go-for writers it's already happening... Brubaker-doing more elevision work despite his success in comics Warren Ellis has more television work line dup than comics work for the next year or so and is adding more TV work all the time Fraction and DeConnick, despite successful creator owned projects have started their own TV production/writing studio and are taking more writing work for that all the time those are considered A-list names, but they are moving out from comics to make their living. Not sure where the artists can g0-video game design maybe, movie design work, advertising is not the same game as it was back in the 50s to be a haven for fleeing artists. I am not going to say crash, but there is change in the air if you look at what is happening behind the curtains of the industry. -M I'm not at all up to date on all the current or 'fad' TV shows but could you provide any examples of shows that the creators you've mentioned having worked on or for? The only prominent creator that I can think of immediately that made a successful jump to TV is Brian K Vaughn. Video game design may be a possibility. The best example that comes to mind is Joe Mad(ureira). He's made quite the impact (and money) from the Darksiders' growing franchise. I subscribe to both Warren Ellis's weekly newsletter (Orbital Operations) and the Fraction/DeConnick newsletter (Milkfed Criminal Masterminds) where they all talk about their upcoming projects in television, that they cannot name yet because the studios haven't okayed the publicity. Brubaker talks about television panels in the letters pages of his books, intros of trades and in Image panels form cons that are on youtube links if you want to subscribe to newsletters... Orbital OperationsMilkfed Criminal Mastermindsand more successful in TV than BKV is of course Robert Kirkman... oh and Hunters which just premiered on SyFy is something Warren Ellis helped develop/worked on... -M |
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Post by Batflunkie on Apr 19, 2016 19:22:56 GMT -5
I subscribe to both Warren Ellis's weekly newsletter (Orbital Operations) and the Fraction/DeConnick newsletter (Milkfed Criminal Masterminds) where they all talk about their upcoming projects in television, that they cannot name yet because the studios haven't okayed the publicity. Brubaker talks about television panels in the letters pages of his books, intros of trades and in Image panels form cons that are on youtube links if you want to subscribe to newsletters... Orbital OperationsMilkfed Criminal Masterminds Will most definitely check out the one for Ellis, if you can think of any other newsletters the come to mind, shoot me a PM |
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