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Post by Icctrombone on May 18, 2016 6:16:29 GMT -5
I watched the interview that mrp posted with Darwyn cooke and he said DC wasn't calling him for steady work. I also heard this about Adam Hughes in the past. These are supposed " fan Favorites" why don't the big two have work for the artists that have huge followings ?
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Post by Nowhere Man on May 18, 2016 7:11:32 GMT -5
My guess is that they don't follow the "house style" or they're too strong willed and view editor's as glorified proof readers, which is what they really should be.
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Post by tolworthy on May 18, 2016 8:19:22 GMT -5
My guess is that they don't follow the "house style" or they're too strong willed and view editor's as glorified proof readers, which is what they really should be. Yes, this seems quite common. Jim Steranko was a classic example: here's an article about his early clashes with Stan Lee and how he got fired for refusing to change a beautiful work of art.Steve Rude is another example. One of the best artists out there, yet he is sometimes reduced to begging for donations (for health or legal reasons) because he can't get the work he needs. Then there's Herb Trimpe: not the best artist in the world, but the best artist for certain stories: some of his Hulk pages are unforgettables. But he finally had to leave comics and become a school teacher IIRC. Even The King had to leave comics because nobody valued his work: the only place he got any respect (and a decent pension) was in animation, and there he was just one more artist among many. Comics can be brutal. I think another reason is that some of the best artists put so much time into their work that they inevitably miss deadlines. Again, Steranko was famous for this: he was paid the basic, small page rate, yet spend hours or days on giving Marvel far more than they paid for. But all Marvel saw was a guy who could not meet deadlines. Now a good editor would say "this guy produces beautiful work, and we can sell it as reprints again and again: but he can only do X pages a month. So I'll find somebody else to do a backup strip, or fill in backgrounds, or write a sub plot that intertwines with the main story so we can use the sub plot issues at short notice without messing up the look of the main story." But instead, editors say "this guy is making me work: that's unacceptable."
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Post by Cei-U! on May 18, 2016 8:50:21 GMT -5
The idea that an editor is or should be "a glorified proofreader" is bullshit. Authors like Ernest Hemingway, Stephen King, and Doris Kearns Godwin have praised their editors as invaluable collaborators who make their work better. They're not going to say that about a proofreader. Good editors do far, far more than that. The editor's job is to act like a stereo amplifier: filter out all the static and background noise so that the creator's vision comes through strong and undistorted. Sometimes that means cleaning up grammar, spelling, and punctuation (Mario Puzo's prose was supposed to need major cosmetic work before it was considered publishable). Sometimes it means acting as a sounding board, helping the creator work through a problem with narrative or characterization. Sometimes that means telling the creator when he or she has lost direction or gone too far. It is NOT the editor's job to put their own stylistic stamp on everything they edit. Their work should be invisible to the reader/viewer. This is what the comic book industry so often gets wrong.
Cei-U! Sorry for the rant but, well, pet peeve!
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Post by tingramretro on May 18, 2016 8:56:25 GMT -5
The idea that an editor is or should be "a glorified proofreader" is bullshit. Authors like Ernest Hemingway, Stephen King, and Doris Kearns Godwin have praised their editors as invaluable collaborators who make their work better. They're not going to say that about a proofreader. Speaking as a former magazine editor: thank you.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2016 9:10:24 GMT -5
The idea that an editor is or should be "a glorified proofreader" is bullshit. Authors like Ernest Hemingway, Stephen King, and Doris Kearns Godwin have praised their editors as invaluable collaborators who make their work better. They're not going to say that about a proofreader. Speaking as a former magazine editor: thank you. Ditto from a former newspaper & current online editor whose actual training was in editing books. Though to be honest, given the frequency with which really stupid errors in continuity, grammar, etc. pop up in books (both fiction & nonfiction) these days, some actual proofreading would be very much appreciated.
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Post by Icctrombone on May 18, 2016 9:16:20 GMT -5
I guess speed ( or lack of) is a factor but Adam Hughes certainly sells comics based on his covers alone. Why isn't he hired to do a one shot or graphic novel with a flexible release date? I'm thinking that maybe the artists of today are less expensive. You can put any artist on Spider-man and pay him chump change and still sell the book.
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Post by Randle-El on May 18, 2016 9:37:39 GMT -5
On the other end, there's artists like John Romita Jr. He seems to have no trouble getting work on high profile books, despite the fact that I don't really know anyone that actually really likes his work. Whenever I hear people talk about their favorite artists, I hear a lot of names but I rarely ever see his name mentioned. It's like he's just there. It made a whole lot of sense though when I read that he was very easy to work with and always hits his deadlines. From an editor's standpoint, I can see how that would make him a go-to guy.
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Post by Nowhere Man on May 18, 2016 10:13:07 GMT -5
There are quality editors that are more than just editors (particularly those that are writers/artists themselves) but there are also editors that are little more than petty middle-men that seemingly only exist to stifle creativity and push their own agenda. When I spoke out against "glorified proof-readers" I'm mainly thinking about a lot of Marvel and DC editors that I've witnessed first hand screwing up series with their meddling.
That said, I'm not a fan of editors having much say in the creative side of things. Outside of checking continuity errors, and yes, making sure the product looks nice, why not do it yourself if you're so much better than the talent hired to do the job? (Rhetorical question not aimed at anyone specifically.) I guess Marvel tried that once to mixed results.
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Post by Cei-U! on May 18, 2016 10:19:55 GMT -5
On the other end, there's artists like John Romita Jr. He seems to have no trouble getting work on high profile books, despite the fact that I don't really know anyone that actually really likes his work. Whenever I hear people talk about their favorite artists, I hear a lot of names but I rarely ever see his name mentioned. It's like he's just there. It made a whole lot of sense though when I read that he was very easy to work with and always hits his deadlines. From an editor's standpoint, I can see how that would make him a go-to guy. Absolutely. It's all about the work ethic. That's why artists like Sal Buscema and Jose Delbo were never out of work. Writers loved those guys too because they knew that everything they asked for in their scripts would be delivered, even if the illustrations weren't as flashy or flamboyant as the fan favorites. Cei-U! And by the way, I like JR JR's work!
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Post by Nowhere Man on May 18, 2016 10:22:52 GMT -5
On the other end, there's artists like John Romita Jr. He seems to have no trouble getting work on high profile books, despite the fact that I don't really know anyone that actually really likes his work. Whenever I hear people talk about their favorite artists, I hear a lot of names but I rarely ever see his name mentioned. It's like he's just there. It made a whole lot of sense though when I read that he was very easy to work with and always hits his deadlines. From an editor's standpoint, I can see how that would make him a go-to guy. I've always liked his work and think he has a very unique style that's a breath of fresh air. That said, he's been teamed with writers the past 15 or so years that I simply don't like. The last thing I really liked was his Thor run with Dan Jurgans. I think you bring up a good point. Some creators are simply too strong-willed, to different and too independent to work in the Marvel and DC systems. I would have rather read a Batman run by Darwyn Cooke than just about any other artist, I love that style, but a big chunk of the modern fan-base have been indoctrinated to believe that cartoony = less serious. I don't get it and think its ignorant but that sadly seems to be the case. As far as Steve Rude goes, I love the guys art and think he's brilliant, but when John Byrne says you're difficult to work with...yeah.
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Crimebuster
CCF Podcast Guru
Making comics!
Posts: 3,958
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Post by Crimebuster on May 18, 2016 11:15:09 GMT -5
I guess speed ( or lack of) is a factor but Adam Hughes certainly sells comics based on his covers alone. Why isn't he hired to do a one shot or graphic novel with a flexible release date? I'm thinking that maybe the artists of today are less expensive. You can put any artist on Spider-man and pay him chump change and still sell the book. He's writing and drawing the new ongoing Betty and Veronica series from Archie, so fans will have a regular venue to see his work.
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,872
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Post by shaxper on May 18, 2016 11:52:32 GMT -5
On the other end, there's artists like John Romita Jr. He seems to have no trouble getting work on high profile books, despite the fact that I don't really know anyone that actually really likes his work. Whenever I hear people talk about their favorite artists, I hear a lot of names but I rarely ever see his name mentioned. It's like he's just there. It made a whole lot of sense though when I read that he was very easy to work with and always hits his deadlines. From an editor's standpoint, I can see how that would make him a go-to guy. Or your Vince Collettas, who work fast and get prostitutes for their higher-ups. Who cares if their work is actually any good? Not Martin Goodman, apparently
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Post by Nowhere Man on May 18, 2016 12:47:02 GMT -5
I was under the impression that Adam Hughes simply didn't want to do interiors for superhero books. I also strikes me as one of the slower artists.
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Post by Rob Allen on May 18, 2016 12:58:39 GMT -5
I've read that there are three major factors in the decision to hire a freelancer: 1. Is their work good? 2. Do they meet the deadline? 3. Are they easy to work with? If the answer is "yes" to two of those three, the freelancer will probably get hired consistently. So, if you're crabby, you better be good and meet your deadlines. If you're slow, you better be good, and congenial. If your work isn't very good, you better meet the deadlines and be easy to work with. Which artists fit which category is left as an exercise for the reader.
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