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Post by tingramretro on May 20, 2016 10:37:44 GMT -5
Thank you, now I'm depressed...
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Post by MDG on May 20, 2016 11:19:08 GMT -5
I never said it was a bad page, just one that used a lot of blank space and was therefore quicker to complete. And as for what you prefer, well folks, we're older than the target demographics of most entertainment companies these days and our tastes are often out of step with what sells in the contemporary market, so our preferences really don't shape what the marketplace is anymore, and when they are different than what the target demographic prefers, that demo will win out-just like our preferences once trumped those who came before us. Time marches on and we are on the wrong side of it as far as determining the marketplace now. -M Blank space doesn't always mean quicker to complete. Look how much happens in that Kirby page, compared to the Batman. And I'll blame it on the inker, but that BWS page is kind've a mess without color. The name of the game in comics is storytelling. Perez is a good artist, but the fact that you know how many bricks are in a wall doesn't add anything--in fact, useless (that is functionless) detail can slow down the reading experience. Many of the best artists (Eisner, Toth, the Hernandezs, Ditko, etc.) will establish the scene in and early shot and focus on the story (character movement, interaction, expression) in subsequent panels. "Detail" has been a fetish for comic fans as if the number of lines in a panel (and the implication that it was a lot of painstaking work) means as much as what the panel does in the story.  |
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Post by tolworthy on May 20, 2016 12:02:59 GMT -5
I never said it was a bad page, just one that used a lot of blank space Fixed it for you   |
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Post by tolworthy on May 20, 2016 12:09:05 GMT -5
"Detail" has been a fetish for comic fans as if the number of lines in a panel (and the implication that it was a lot of painstaking work) means as much as what the panel does in the story. Agreed. Though I won't hear anybody badmouth George Perez. And needless detail should not be confused with immersive detail, or the amount of useful information on each page. I have to confess that I adore artists who give real value for money. Here is an example of the amount of story I expect on each page: I still think that a 20 page comic should be a novel.  |
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Post by tingramretro on May 20, 2016 12:18:50 GMT -5
"Detail" has been a fetish for comic fans as if the number of lines in a panel (and the implication that it was a lot of painstaking work) means as much as what the panel does in the story. Agreed. Though I won't hear anybody badmouth George Perez. And needless detail should not be confused with immersive detail, or the amount of useful information on each page. I have to confess that I adore artists who give real value for money. Here is an example of the amount of story I expect on each page: I still think that a 20 page comic should be a novel. I love Ken Reid. The man was an absolute legend. |
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Post by Icctrombone on May 20, 2016 12:22:02 GMT -5
I never said it was a bad page, just one that used a lot of blank space Fixed it for you AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH !!!! See what you caused, mrp ? |
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Post by Icctrombone on May 20, 2016 12:28:08 GMT -5
Even George Perez is screaming, TOO MUCH, TOO MUCH !!!!!
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Post by Rob Allen on May 20, 2016 15:53:56 GMT -5
... we're older than the target demographics of most entertainment companies these days and our tastes are often out of step with what sells in the contemporary market, so our preferences really don't shape what the marketplace is anymore No! We are the Baby Boomers! We will never surrender the spotlight! The world must cater to our preferences! Thus it has been, and thus it shall always be! |
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Post by dupersuper on May 20, 2016 21:32:25 GMT -5
"Detail" has been a fetish for comic fans as if the number of lines in a panel (and the implication that it was a lot of painstaking work) means as much as what the panel does in the story. Agreed. Though I won't hear anybody badmouth George Perez. And needless detail should not be confused with immersive detail, or the amount of useful information on each page. I have to confess that I adore artists who give real value for money. Here is an example of the amount of story I expect on each page: I still think that a 20 page comic should be a novel. I see nothing.  |
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Post by Icctrombone on May 21, 2016 5:53:36 GMT -5
"Detail" has been a fetish for comic fans as if the number of lines in a panel (and the implication that it was a lot of painstaking work) means as much as what the panel does in the story. Agreed. Though I won't hear anybody badmouth George Perez. And needless detail should not be confused with immersive detail, or the amount of useful information on each page. I have to confess that I adore artists who give real value for money. Here is an example of the amount of story I expect on each page: I still think that a 20 page comic should be a novel. There's a lot of story in this one page. It's a style of writing that is defunct these days. As for Perez, the details were great in some books and cluttered and obscured the storytelling in others. I adore his Avengers/JLA project. |
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Post by Paste Pot Paul on May 22, 2016 4:48:34 GMT -5
After many years of being an advocate of the newer heavily rendered pages ive started coming round to the idea of less is more. Im more impressed these days by Darwyn Cooke or Alex Toth etc, than the DC clones who fill every inch of the page with image. They show, issue after issue how little they know of storytelling, and Im no scholar of the medium, I just fail to follow the story in so many new books.
Don't get me wrong, I still like some of them, that Capullo page earlier is very cool, but in general, and in line with this threads title, I fail to see how the likes of Steve Rude or Jerry Ordway or even Tom Grummet aren't working all the time when these carbon copy new guys keep getting work. I loathe these artists who seem to be inspired by manga(which is okay in and of itself) who cant/dont draw a proper face and mouth for the life of them (Kris Anka on Capt. Marvel comes to mind).
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Post by Icctrombone on May 22, 2016 5:43:54 GMT -5
There are a lot of considerations that have been pointed out before in this thread , but I'm inclined to believe that it's control and salary that prevent the older artists from being hired.
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on May 25, 2016 6:25:07 GMT -5
I really don't think it's hard to figure out why Darwyn Cooke, who personified everything that was fun and joyful about superhero comics, wasn't getting any regular work from DC Comics, the home of All Gritty, All The Time. But... Isn't DC the company that gave him the vast majority of his body of work??? Appart from two spider-man issues, three short chapters of The Alex for Image, one short Rocketeer story and the Parker books, all of his writing has been for DC IIRC. And as A penciler, you can add 4 issues of X-Statics related issues and that's it, as opposed to around 70 issues of original material for DC. I think that guys like Cooke and Hugues are also treated as "auteurs" by those companies, which means they will give them high profile books and every now and then a fun little thing to keep them happy (those Jonah Hex issues by Cooke for instance). One thing that is also left out regarding Cooke, is that despite his cartoony style, he was a perfectionist and far from a fast artist. He wasn't slow, but he redrew pages quite often, and he was specific about the work he was taking on. It would have made no sense to put him on a monthly bookand expected a run extanding over a year unless he had all his focus on it, which he didn't have as he always was nurturing or working on personnal projects. |
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on May 25, 2016 7:03:49 GMT -5
Could be. The wikipedia page doesn't really give a exact explanation as to why other than that his process is unorthodox to a degree. According to Charest, the time he needs to finish a given page varies, depending on how fast his editor needs it, and what he is being paid,[14] though because he came to prefer producing artwork that takes longer than the norm to complete by the time he left Wildstorm, he no longer finds it feasible to be the regular artist on a monthly series.[15] He points to WildC.A.T.s/X-Men: The Golden Age as an example of a book that took him considerable time (under a year), though he stresses that he finished it on time.It's all about the work ethic for artists. I think most of the professionals of the past produced a page a day. I remember reading that some of the artists of the 90's wasted most of their days playing video games instead of hitting that drawing board. Joe Mediarera of Battle Chasers was one of those dudes. When Charest was hired to work on the Metabaron saga with Jodorowsky, he moved to France. There, I got the opportunity to meet him and see him work. So from those experiences, I can tell you that he wasn't a slow artist, just one with the highest standards regarding his work : few superhero comic book artists saw the quality of their work grow as fast as Charest did, when you llok at those early Darkstar/Hulk/Flash comics he did and where he was at by WildCATS #25 (his seventh issue IIRC), it is just mesmerazing. And when you look at his last regular WildCATS issue and the X-Men/WildCats oneshot, it again showcases giant leaps. Charest was an artist who had/has studied fine art and illustration while becoming a mainstream comic book artist, and he got hungry for excellence. He was torn by te dichotomy between his commercial work and te ideals of fine illustration. While working on the Metabarons, he accounted several thousand pages thrown in the dustbins, many fully inked and hand colored by himself. I saw a handfull of those and believe me, those would have made any number one selling comi book editor supremly happy. In the end, he never even managed to finish that graphic novel by himself as he got lost in the process, and I must confess that the coloring choices he made on the ones that made the cut showcased a few problems, the major one being a lack of timelessness : it looked like a Heavy Metal french SF comics from the seventies instead of a work of the future, at least on the coloring side of things. The technique was more then fine, but it served a flawed purpose. Charest consecutivly went into severe depression, and has had many issues returning to comics. He did his one pannel serial Space Girl in a quite spontaneous way, but that didn't really go anywhere. I don't know where he now is and what he works on, but appart from a handfull variant covers for Marvel and Image (the most recent being 2 years old), those old DH Star Wars covers, a 1 page story with Brubaker on Captain AMerica, he's been missing from our four walls little world and his site hasn't been updated for years. So those are the last pieces of his published art to have graced us :     His twiter has seen half a dozen posts since the begining of the year though, featuring a Star Wars piece and some pencil work showcasing a somplified style, no info on what this was for.   I guess that if we were to ever see more sequential comic book work from him, that would be at Marvel, and with his Star Wars obsession, That could be a GN, but I wouldn't count on any annoucement before the whole damn thing was done and ready... |
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Post by Arthur Gordon Scratch on May 25, 2016 7:15:28 GMT -5
Then again, either, this is just for fun, or this very last piece published on twiter as of two days ago hints at some X-Men work...  |
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