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Post by sabongero on Jun 1, 2017 9:41:09 GMT -5
Can I just ask, if a superhero/superheroine is written in a story that portrays them in a character assassination type of storyarc and green lighted by editors, can that be considered editorial sabotage, even if the story is really good?
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jun 1, 2017 9:46:12 GMT -5
Can I just ask, if a superhero/superheroine is written in a story that portrays them in a character assassination type of storyarc and green lighted by editors, can that be considered editorial sabotage, even if the story is really good?  |
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Post by sabongero on Jun 1, 2017 10:30:32 GMT -5
Can I just ask, if a superhero/superheroine is written in a story that portrays them in a character assassination type of storyarc and green lighted by editors, can that be considered editorial sabotage, even if the story is really good? Exactly the point. The JLA even agreed to mindwipe Batman. Great Brad Meltzer story. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Jun 1, 2017 10:58:30 GMT -5
I enjoyed it.
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Post by Hoosier X on Jun 1, 2017 16:40:51 GMT -5
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about "Identity Crisis." I think it's mostly awful.
To clarify, it's not nearly as bad as The Widening Gyre. It's more in the same "This is considered a classic?" category, along with The Long Halloween.
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Post by sabongero on Jun 1, 2017 17:21:27 GMT -5
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jun 1, 2017 18:45:39 GMT -5
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about "Identity Crisis." I think it's mostly awful. I enjoyed it as a self-contained work. Then I started weighing it in terms of legacy and what it did to characters and properties I cared about. I'd imagine it would have been no different than Alan Moore doing Watchmen without changing the names of the Charlton characters. |
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Post by Hoosier X on Jun 1, 2017 19:18:19 GMT -5
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about "Identity Crisis." I think it's mostly awful. I enjoyed it as a self-contained work. Then I started weighing it in terms of legacy and what it did to characters and properties I cared about. I'd imagine it would have been no different than Alan Moore doing Watchmen without changing the names of the Charlton characters. I don't think there's any comparison. I didn't merely dislike Identity Crisis because it was mean to favorite characters. All the most important scenes - the rape of Sue Dibny, the murder of Sue Dibny, the scene where Deathstroke neutralizes several very powerful JLAers, the madness of Jean Loring - I didn't think any of these scenes were very good, even considering Identity Crisis as an independent entity. A lot of the drama was horribly contrived ... and the most melodramatic moments relied on contrived moments that depended on degrading major female characters - Sue Dibny's rape, Sue Dibny's murder, and then Jean Loring's motive was that she was insane. If I were to look through it again, I might remember some of the things I liked better. I think I liked some of the characterizations of the villains aside from Dr. Light. But the big moments are awful. And that's what makes Identity Crisis awful. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jun 1, 2017 19:52:30 GMT -5
I remember thinking Identity Crisis was decent at first, but the longer it went on the worse it got. The mind wipe stuff was really, IMO, and it required several characters to be out of character.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jun 1, 2017 20:03:11 GMT -5
From what I remember of IDC, the characters acted in different ways and were conflicted about the mind wiping. It's what made it great to me- the decisions weren't easy for most of them. Yeah, Jean was insane to be sure. I couldn't wait for each succeeding chapter. The Deathstroke sequence makes as much sense as Batman beating Superman or Spider-man whipping up on the X-men in the original Secret Wars.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jun 1, 2017 21:03:23 GMT -5
A lot of the drama was horribly contrived ... I could say the same of Watchmen, but I won't derail this thread. I literally just read a paper two weeks back arguing the same of Watchmen. |
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bran
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Post by bran on Jun 1, 2017 21:33:06 GMT -5
In Watchmen, Moore made a humorous comment about what you call editorial sabotage (and downright creation/plotting). There is one super-hero, member of the 1st squad, who was sponsored by corporations - a Dollar Bill. Moore made him utterly incompetent, pompous, over the top-costume, mentally meek, overall ridicules.
The thing is, if you leave to editors, execs or accountants to initiate, write or influence the story you default to what is a comic-book equivalent of Joel Schumacher's Batman & Robin (or a Dollar Bill LOL). That's a norm. When they put a spandex on Jonah Hex (the laser gun in his hand, futuristic vehicle instead of the horse), after previously altering the character - a classic case.
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bran
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Post by bran on Jun 1, 2017 23:20:35 GMT -5
I see your BlackHawk and raise you a Hex in the future  I'll dispute Hex as editorial sabotage. Jonah Hex was being cancelled due to falling sales, and Michael Fleisher ( the Jonah Hex writer as far as i am concerned) was offered the opportunity to transform it into a post-apocalyptic nook in an effort to keep the character going. No, it was Fleisher-written series that was canceled. That, as you say falling, series was titled Jonah Hex. Hex's character was watered down to softer version of his former self, stories were so-so, obviously the readers had their say. John Albano was the creator/pan-ultimate writer of Jonah Hex, 1st story published in All Star Western 10, and then in Weird Western Tales.  It was a instant fan-favorite, so much so that they added Jonah Hex logo in bigger letters than the title (Weird Western Tales):  It's easy to see why - Albano's script is tight - with interesting characters, dialogs done well, superb pacing and IMO great art by De Zuniga (I love his work). Of course the main attraction is his character - just compare Hex with other western-heroes from that era like Pow-Wow Smith. They were all nice and righteous guys that will bore you to death. Despite that - Hex has his own moral compass, it's just... a different one than what would you expect maybe, it's weird like that. Arguably a new sub-genre was born right there - Weird Western. Albano/De Zuniga had a stellar run of 10 stories or so. So all the editors had to do is continue in that direction, let them do whatever they were doing, right? Wrong - they start the brand new series, titled it Jonah Hex, and have their yes-men to write it. Then when it failed, they concluded "aaah it's because it's a western" (so it's not their fault, rigth :-)). In other words - it's not poor writing/art - it's the environment/era! So they start the brand new series "Hex" (that one failed after 18 issues only, aslo written by Fleisher), but removed the Western setting this time around. |
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Post by Hoosier X on Jun 2, 2017 0:09:51 GMT -5
A lot of the drama was horribly contrived ... I could say the same of Watchmen, but I won't derail this thread. Thank you for your restraint. |
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Post by Hoosier X on Jun 2, 2017 0:11:48 GMT -5
and the most melodramatic moments relied on contrived moments that depended on degrading major female characters I literally just read a paper two weeks back arguing the same of Watchmen. Could you provide some more information? If there's no link, how about the title? |
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