|
Post by Cei-U! on Jun 2, 2017 0:18:39 GMT -5
I like the Albano run too, bran, but you do the folks behind the Hex solo title a serious injustice in dismissing the book as a failure. That "failure" ran for 92 issues spanning 10 years. There's a whole lot of great series, including many fan favorites, that wish they could've experienced that kind of failure. I haven't read the whole run yet but the first 55, mostly scripted by Fleischer (hardly a "yes-man"), are among the best comics of the era, better written than 90% of the DC line at that time. The simple truth is westerns had stopped selling, just like they'd disappeared from movies and TV. The revamp was a desperate (and, in hindsight, ill-advised) attempt to keep the character alive.
Cei-U! I summon the counterpoint!
|
|
|
Post by Snikts and Stones on Jun 2, 2017 0:48:54 GMT -5
The whole Jim Owsley and Tom Defalco and (through no fault of his own) Peter David "Ned Leeds is the Hobgoblin not Richard Fisk because he's the Rose, oh and by the way you're fired, oops I killed Ned and here's Daredevil in a fat suit" shenanigans.
To hear Owsley tell it, he and Defalco were friends, maybe his (Owsley) only friend at Marvel. Tom D's plan was just as carefully done as Stern's and with his (Roger's) blessing I believe. What's to gain by derailing this whole thing? Was it an honest mistake? Were things that bad behind the scenes? Missed deadlines? Crappy attitudes?
As an aside I liked Stern's idea better and his slow burn into the mystery of Hobby was incredible, and I read them all at once years later. I can't imagine what it was like having to wait a whole month in between fixes!
|
|
shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,878
|
Post by shaxper on Jun 2, 2017 4:33:32 GMT -5
I literally just read a paper two weeks back arguing the same of Watchmen. Could you provide some more information? If there's no link, how about the title? Here you go.
|
|
|
Post by sunofdarkchild on Jun 2, 2017 8:00:31 GMT -5
For my money the worst instance of editorial interference was the restoration of Jean Grey so they could have X-Factor. While it was Kurt Busiek's stupid fanboy idea to make it so that she wasn't the Pheonix, Shooter went along with it, apparently thought it was a great marketing ploy, and presented it to Claremont only when it was too late for Claremont to have a say. The destruction of the characters of Cyclops and Madelyne Prior were bad enough, but this was the first of big superhero resurrections that have come to plague the industry, as well as the 'everything resets to the status quo and nothing develops' problem.
I find it hard to blame DKR for the problems with Batman, since the Batman comics were still really good until the turn of the century. Editorial did really start to kill Batman once they kicked Dixon out, culminating in the craptacular War Games.
Queseda's mandates for Spider-Man and X-Men in the mid-2000s were so spectacularly bad it makes my head spin. Spider-Man erases his marriage and the Scarkett Witch erases almost all mutants?
Pretty much everything Dan Didio mandates turns to crap. The man should never have been allowed anywhere near anything that isn't a marketing department, and certainly should never have been allowed to make any creative decisions. And Bob Harris just shouldn't be in comics to begin with.
|
|
|
Post by Hoosier X on Jun 2, 2017 8:52:26 GMT -5
Could you provide some more information? If there's no link, how about the title? Here you go. Thanks for the link. The authors must be even more concerned about misogyny in Identity Crisis. Watchmen contains one attempted rape of a major female character in twelve issues. In fewer issues (seven, I think), Identity Crisis contains the rape of Sue Dibny, the murder of Sue Dibny and the madness of Jean Loring because her frail ego can't deal with ... whatever it was that turned her into a murderer for some reason. (And it was written twenty years later.) Identity Crisis is a love letter to the Silver Age for people who don't know what a love letter is or when the Silver Age was. And give Alan Moore credit for figuring out how to fill twelve issues of a comic book with exciting moments without a major female character being raped, murdered or going insane for specious reasons.
|
|
|
Post by Snikts and Stones on Jun 2, 2017 8:57:39 GMT -5
For my money the worst instance of editorial interference was the restoration of Jean Grey so they could have X-Factor. While it was Kurt Busiek's stupid fanboy idea to make it so that she wasn't the Pheonix, Shooter went along with it, apparently thought it was a great marketing ploy, and presented it to Claremont only when it was too late for Claremont to have a say. The destruction of the characters of Cyclops and Madelyne Prior were bad enough, but this was the first of big superhero resurrections that have come to plague the industry, as well as the 'everything resets to the status quo and nothing develops' problem.. ^^^ This! Ironically it was Shooter who was insistent that Jean die for her crimes, that's what made it groundbreaking. Important. Insert superlative. Then Layton has the idea to get the band together, Busiek as you said goes all fanboy and X-Factor is born and ruins the Marvel Universe! I'm kidding but fallout was great indeed, not the least of which was Maddy, whom I loved with the X-Men in the post Massacre stories becomes redundant (which is stupid, like there's a redhead quota on the X-books) and they kill her. Ugh.
|
|
shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,878
|
Post by shaxper on Jun 2, 2017 9:57:37 GMT -5
And give Alan Moore credit for figuring out how to fill twelve issues of a comic book with exciting moments without a major female character being raped, murdered or going insane for specious reasons. but... Not the only major work where he's used rape as a plot device either.
|
|
Crimebuster
CCF Podcast Guru
Making comics!
Posts: 3,959
|
Post by Crimebuster on Jun 2, 2017 10:30:08 GMT -5
Just as an aside, I'm pretty sure I've heard Kurt Busiek say before that he didn't really like the idea of them bringing Jean back. He actually came up with the idea of how they could possibly do it before X-Men #137 was even published. The idea got around the comic grapevine and when they decided they wanted to do X-Factor, his idea was used as the explanation. But I don't think it's fair to blame him for her return; they wanted to do it, and just used his idea as the means.
|
|
|
Post by sunofdarkchild on Jun 2, 2017 11:00:33 GMT -5
Just as an aside, I'm pretty sure I've heard Kurt Busiek say before that he didn't really like the idea of them bringing Jean back. He actually came up with the idea of how they could possibly do it before X-Men #137 was even published. The idea got around the comic grapevine and when they decided they wanted to do X-Factor, his idea was used as the explanation. But I don't think it's fair to blame him for her return; they wanted to do it, and just used his idea as the means. Maybe I was too hard on him, but he was not yet working at Marvel at the time and had even wrote Marvel to cancel his subscription to X-Men when it happened. Everything I've seen says that he was still regretting that she couldn't be brought back when he shared his idea. Anyway, it was a terrible idea and a terrible fanfiction story that I think everyone from Byrne to Lousie Simonsen should be ashamed of having had a part in writing. Byrne in particular shocks me. How can an artist have so little respect for his own work?
|
|
|
Post by Snikts and Stones on Jun 2, 2017 11:05:37 GMT -5
Just as an aside, I'm pretty sure I've heard Kurt Busiek say before that he didn't really like the idea of them bringing Jean back. He actually came up with the idea of how they could possibly do it before X-Men #137 was even published. The idea got around the comic grapevine and when they decided they wanted to do X-Factor, his idea was used as the explanation. But I don't think it's fair to blame him for her return; they wanted to do it, and just used his idea as the means. Maybe I was too hard on him, but he was not yet working at Marvel at the time and had even wrote Marvel to cancel his subscription to X-Men when it happened. Everything I've seen says that he was still regretting that she couldn't be brought back when he shared his idea. Anyway, it was a terrible idea and a terrible fanfiction story that I think everyone from Byrne to Lousie Simonsen should be ashamed of having had a part in writing. Byrne in particular shocks me. How can an artist have so little respect for his own work? He did hop right on board to do his part in FF didn't he. I never met JB but I can't help but think he relished sticking it to CC, even if it meant crapping on his own masterpiece. I'd like to think he's not that capricious, but who knows.
|
|
|
Post by Hoosier X on Jun 2, 2017 12:58:45 GMT -5
And give Alan Moore credit for figuring out how to fill twelve issues of a comic book with exciting moments without a major female character being raped, murdered or going insane for specious reasons. but... Not the only major work where he's used rape as a plot device either. I never said that Moore had never used rape or attempted rape as a plot device, so I'm not sure why you're going there. What I said ... and it's quite clear ... is that Watchmen has one rape attempt in twelve issues whereas the much-shorter Identity Crisis thrives on its bad treatment of major female characters, with the rape of Sue Dibny, the murder of Sue Dibny and the rather arbitrary madness of Jean Loring. I disagree with your statement that Identity Crisis is nearly the same as Watchmen, just with recognizable and famous characters, and I've given reasons why.
|
|
Crimebuster
CCF Podcast Guru
Making comics!
Posts: 3,959
|
Post by Crimebuster on Jun 2, 2017 13:32:58 GMT -5
One big difference I see between the two is that Watchmen was commenting on the treatment of female characters in superhero comics. That's why the Silk Spectre doesn't have any powers or actually do anything, and is just there to provide character motivation for the men in the comic. It's intentional commentary.
I haven't read all - or much - of Identity Crisis, but what I have read seems like a dumpster fire.
|
|
shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,878
|
Post by shaxper on Jun 2, 2017 17:31:30 GMT -5
but... Not the only major work where he's used rape as a plot device either. I never said that Moore had never used rape or attempted rape as a plot device, so I'm not sure why you're going there. Your statement again was "And give Alan Moore credit for figuring out how to fill twelve issues of a comic book with exciting moments without a major female character being raped, murdered or going insane for specious reasons." which I responded to by showing that, in fact, it did have a major female character being raped within its 12 issues. Not sure what you're not sure about. They are not the same in terms of quality. They are comparable in terms of the damage they inflict upon established properties, Watchmen being more tolerable because it utilized characters who were out of print and changed the names.
|
|
|
Post by Slam_Bradley on Jun 2, 2017 17:40:27 GMT -5
I never said that Moore had never used rape or attempted rape as a plot device, so I'm not sure why you're going there. Your statement again was "And give Alan Moore credit for figuring out how to fill twelve issues of a comic book with exciting moments without a major female character being raped, murdered or going insane for specious reasons." which I responded to by showing that, in fact, it did have a major female character being raped within its 12 issues. Not sure what you're not sure about. They are not the same in terms of quality. They are comparable in terms of the damage they inflict upon established properties, Watchmen being more tolerable because it utilized characters who were out of print and changed the names. Watchmen did no damage whatsoever to established properties.
|
|
shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,878
|
Post by shaxper on Jun 2, 2017 17:45:10 GMT -5
Your statement again was "And give Alan Moore credit for figuring out how to fill twelve issues of a comic book with exciting moments without a major female character being raped, murdered or going insane for specious reasons." which I responded to by showing that, in fact, it did have a major female character being raped within its 12 issues. Not sure what you're not sure about. They are not the same in terms of quality. They are comparable in terms of the damage they inflict upon established properties, Watchmen being more tolerable because it utilized characters who were out of print and changed the names. Watchmen did no damage whatsoever to established properties. ...because it changed the names. If they'd called the characters Blue Beetle, Captain Atom, Nightshade, Peacemaker, The Question, and Thunderbolt, I absolutely think it would have.
|
|