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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jun 3, 2016 18:22:04 GMT -5
Sorry PH, those legs were drawn by semi comics legend Michael Golden. I don't care who drew them. They still don't fit.  The colorist is at fault here : One of the man's legs is coloured pink and one of Carol's is blue. |
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Post by Prince Hal on Jun 3, 2016 18:27:18 GMT -5
I don't care who drew them. They still don't fit. The colorist is at fault here : One of the man's legs is coloured pink and one of Carol's is blue. Oh, okay! I sit corrected. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Jun 3, 2016 19:14:42 GMT -5
The colorist is at fault here : One of the man's legs is coloured pink and one of Carol's is blue. Oh, okay! I sit corrected. He means the lower left where Carol is sitting on a beach chair. But I agree, she has man legs. |
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Crimebuster
CCF Podcast Guru
Making comics!
Posts: 3,959 
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Post by Crimebuster on Jun 3, 2016 20:06:30 GMT -5
So, one thing that may be interesting to note is that the Carol rape story was itself a result of editorial interference. Basically, David Michelinie had been setting up this story for a few months where Carol suddenly became pregnant for no apparant reason, building to the birth in #200. However, at the last second, he discovered that another Marvel title had just published a story with almost the same plot as his plans for #200. I guess the editors weren't communicating very well to let that happen. So he was forced to scrap his whole plan at the last second and come up with an entirely new conclusion for #200 that still paid off all the setup. As a result, #200 is a massive rush job with no fewer than four credited writers - Michilinie, Jim Shooter, George Perez, and Bob Layton - because everyone just sort of pitched in ideas to cobble it together. I think that's part of why it ended up with the egregious ending it did; nobody had time to really think through what they were doing.
When Chris Claremont read it, he was furious, and his internal protests about the issue led them to give him the writing duties on Avengers Annual #10, where he had Carol ream the team out. In a way, her denouncement of the team is actually his denouncement of the way Marvel's editorial staff treated the character.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jun 3, 2016 20:45:39 GMT -5
Maybe the most famous example is when Jim Shooter told Claremont and Bryne to change the ending to X-men #137. It resulted in a much better and tragic story.
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Post by Cei-U! on Jun 3, 2016 21:08:00 GMT -5
Maybe the most famous example is when Jim Shooter told Claremont and Bryne to change the ending to X-men #137. It resulted in a much better and tragic story. I'm shocked it took eight pages before somebody brought it up. And I agree it was a change for the better. Cei-U! Too bad they pissed all over it with X-Factor! |
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Post by Icctrombone on Jun 3, 2016 21:45:11 GMT -5
The word " sabotage" is the controversial and misleading part of this thread. Sometimes the editor has to reign in a weird or terrible idea.
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Post by The Captain on Jun 3, 2016 22:03:50 GMT -5
Maybe the most famous example is when Jim Shooter told Claremont and Bryne to change the ending to X-men #137. It resulted in a much better and tragic story. I'm shocked it took eight pages before somebody brought it up. And I agree it was a change for the better. Cei-U! Too bad they pissed all over it with X-Factor! I've been thinking about that one for a few days now, but I didn't post it because, in my estimation, it was an honest attempt to craft a better story. "Sabotage", to me, implies malicious intent to ruin something, and the changing of the end of that story, while not what was originally intended, was far from sabotage. |
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Post by berkley on Jun 3, 2016 22:41:06 GMT -5
The word " sabotage" is the controversial and misleading part of this thread. Sometimes the editor has to reign in a weird or terrible idea. Yeah, I don't think there's necessarily any deliberate or malicious intent involved in all the cases I mentioned. Most of the time it's just incompetence or the pressure of coming up with a story or meeting a deadline or whatever the case may be. Some of them are interesting from a psychological POV - like the fact that different writers felt the urge to get Thena married with children, which looks very much like an instinctive reaction against the fact that she didn't want or need those traditional feminine attributes. It's stuff like this that makes me extremely sceptical of Marvel's recent ham-handed efforts towards gender equality - e.g. having Jane Foster become Thor. In many cases it's a desire, conscious or otherwise, to make something fit the usual superhero patterns the writer is comfortable with. The Etertnals needs a strong, lead male character. OK, Ikaris is now the star and he will have traditional leading-man superhero adventures. A lot of times, it probably comes down to simple laziness. I need a story for Shang Chi - what hasn't been done? ... I dunno, let's make him a drunk - instant story! |
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Post by Icctrombone on Jun 4, 2016 6:19:41 GMT -5
The word " sabotage" is the controversial and misleading part of this thread. Sometimes the editor has to reign in a weird or terrible idea. Yeah, I don't think there's necessarily any deliberate or malicious intent involved in all the cases I mentioned. Most of the time it's just incompetence or the pressure of coming up with a story or meeting a deadline or whatever the case may be. Some of them are interesting from a psychological POV - like the fact that different writers felt the urge to get Thena married with children, which looks very much like an instinctive reaction against the fact that she didn't want or need those traditional feminine attributes. It's stuff like this that makes me extremely sceptical of Marvel's recent ham-handed efforts towards gender equality - e.g. having Jane Foster become Thor. In many cases it's a desire, conscious or otherwise, to make something fit the usual superhero patterns the writer is comfortable with. The Etertnals needs a strong, lead male character. OK, Ikaris is now the star and he will have traditional leading-man superhero adventures. A lot of times, it probably comes down to simple laziness. I need a story for Shang Chi - what hasn't been done? ... I dunno, let's make him a drunk - instant story!Yes. Any new idea will do. Who cares? I'm getting a paycheck for this anyway you look at it. |
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Post by The Captain on Jun 4, 2016 7:53:25 GMT -5
It's stuff like this that makes me extremely sceptical of Marvel's recent ham-handed efforts towards gender equality - e.g. having Jane Foster become Thor. Agree with this. Marvel has a new popular female super-hero in Kamala Khan, seen people clamoring for a Black Widow solo film, made SQUIRREL GIRL an actual viable property, and given solo books to Spider-Woman, Spider-Gwen, Carol Danvers and Bobbi Morse. They have actual interesting female characters at the time-being, so making Thor a female is really unnecessary, in my opinion. |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jun 4, 2016 9:17:23 GMT -5
A lot of times, it probably comes down to simple laziness. I need a story for Shang Chi - what hasn't been done? ... I dunno, let's make him a drunk - instant story! Very good point!!! Or Shang-Chi throws Nayland Smith off a plane and says "Hail Fu Manchu"! |
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Post by Warmonger on Jun 4, 2016 9:44:07 GMT -5
It's stuff like this that makes me extremely sceptical of Marvel's recent ham-handed efforts towards gender equality - e.g. having Jane Foster become Thor. Agree with this. Marvel has a new popular female super-hero in Kamala Khan, seen people clamoring for a Black Widow solo film, made SQUIRREL GIRL an actual viable property, and given solo books to Spider-Woman, Spider-Gwen, Carol Danvers and Bobbi Morse. They have actual interesting female characters at the time-being, so making Thor a female is really unnecessary, in my opinion. It's diversity simply for the sake of diversity...which I'm really getting sick of. |
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Post by Red Oak Kid on Jun 4, 2016 14:42:07 GMT -5
Oh, okay! I sit corrected. He means the lower left where Carol is sitting on a beach chair. But I agree, she has man legs. I think her man legs may be more the fault of the inker. |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jun 4, 2016 15:05:06 GMT -5
He means the lower left where Carol is sitting on a beach chair. But I agree, she has man legs. I think her man legs may be more the fault of the inker. Golden in those years did like to make limbs look slightly odd, though; that's one aspect of his early style that I loved so much. It had a Kirbyesque feel if not a Kirbyesque look: you felt that everything he drew was malleable, be it a human limb or a piece of machinery. I count that Avengers Annual issue (#10) among the best-drawn comics ever! |
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