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Post by coinilius on May 31, 2016 8:46:49 GMT -5
Makes me wonder, if it doesn't already exist, just how Kirby would have done with Wonder Woman. Kirby depicted Wonder Woman in the Super Powers series': And there are some concept work that he did for a Wonder Woman cartoon series that never eventuated that can be found online as well, but as far as I know there isn't any major works that Kirby did involving WW. EDIT: foxley beat me to it! I had this issue as a kid and I really wish Kirby had drawn the inside of the issue as well (it involves Brainiac mind-controlling the Amazons and making them attack Man's World) - unnatural posing and anatomy aside, I think that a Kirby version of Wonder Woman and the Silver Age Amazons could have been amazing to see.
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on May 31, 2016 8:51:08 GMT -5
One thing I can say that Kirby did do well (though I've said it already, but now with a contrast) is that in Sif at least, (since Kirby on Thor is the most I've read of his work) he knew how to draw the body of a woman that was a warrior. Whereas other artists, those know for their curvy women (Choi, Terry Dodson, Salvador Larroca, Adam Hughes) that's all they can do is draw curvy, sexy women, no matter the context of the character. It was hard to imagine Shanna tossing up with Velociraptors and T-Rexs when Choi was drawing a peepshow gal in a fur bikini. imgur.com/a/StrGgSo there is a balance somewhere. And I have as hard of time recognizing Kirby's Medusa or Alica as pretty women as I do Choi's Shanna kicking dinosaur ass. I'm a fan of cheesecake, but, if it's all the same I'd like a balance of female warriors looking pretty at the same time, as looking like actual warriors. Makes me wonder, if it doesn't already exist, just how Kirby would have done with Wonder Woman. Small nitpick: The art you link is by (Frank) Cho, not to be confused with (Michael) Choi. Yeah, I'm not sure if it was a typo or mixing up of names, but yes Frank Cho the creator of Liberty Meadows. Edit: That particular WW, seems about the same as most of his female characters.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2016 9:28:32 GMT -5
Well, the first thing I thought of when I saw this question was So yeah, I'd say the guy could do sexy.
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Post by MDG on May 31, 2016 10:24:39 GMT -5
Wonder Woman by Kirby: (Am I the only one who looks at this and sees stiff and unnatural poses?) I think a lot of Kirby's inkers made his stuff look stiffer than it was. Similarly, they may have needed to soften--not change--some of his female faces. With Kirby, it's not just the picture, it's the character.
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Post by tolworthy on May 31, 2016 13:28:04 GMT -5
the impression I get from his posts is that something being by Kirby immediately makes it perfect and beyond all criticism. Pretty much, yes. That is a position I've arrived at over many years. Why I think Kirby's art is perfectI didn't love Kirby's art at first. As a child I thought he was generally OK, sometimes great, often mediocre. I much preferred Romita, Steranko, Perez - it was a long list. But over the years I've become much more interested in the story than the art. I'm fascinated by big topics: history, philosophy, religion, etc. When I read stories now I'm looking for the reality behind it, and how all the stories fit together. As I went deeper down that rabbit hole I lost interest in more and more artists (and writers of course). The story was all on the surface and did not stand examination. Nothing really made sense. I felt betrayed: as a child I believed in these things, and all the time they were lying to me. But an ever smaller number of writers became more and more interesting, the deeper I delved. Top of that list was Jack Kirby. What then is perfection? I define it as the best possible. That "possible" is important. Kirby was human and there are only so many hours in the day. He had to fit into the system, and inevitably had to rush some jobs. I don't think it was possible to create the good work without the bad. So as a whole it is therefore perfect: because I cannot imagine how it could be possible to do better in the real world. Based on this I think it's also important to define "Kirby" art. Some titles reflected his full energy: e.g. Thor and the Fantastic Four up to the end of 1967. I think it is fair to judge him on these. Other titles - such as odd issues of Strange Tales, or his 1970 Inhumans stuff, is clearly just rushed to pay the bills. That was necessary in order to produce, over all, the best possible: the perfect body of work. So I accept that some later Inhumans work was pig ugly, but I don't see those as reflecting the real Kirby. They were the necessary dross (that he did not want to do) in order to leave time for the true Kirby stuff (the stuff he did want to do). Though even his bad stuff contains hidden depths (in my view) but that's another topic. Why I think Kirby's art is beyond criticismI think people confuse criticism with opinion. Every opinion is valid. As a child I disliked Kirby's late art. That was my opinion, I paid for my comics, so my opinion mattered. But criticism is different. Criticism attempts to describe objective faults (and objective strengths). And in my opinion Kirby is so far ahead of the pack that almost all criticism turn out to be wrong. So I don't think criticism of him has much value. Opinions do, sure. But opinions are not criticism. And you can be tomboyish without looking like a man in drag, which is what most of Kirby's women look like. And so do most women in the real world, in my opinion. Sure, maybe ten percent of women have amazing curves and strikingly feminine faces, but the rest rely on makeup and clothes. I hate that women need to be fake. What is wrong with the world that women cannot be themselves? I love how Kirby's women are real. Ten percent look like glamour models, and ten percent are uglier then the men, and there is a whole spectrum in between. I find that so refreshing. I love realism. I love variety. I love it when we don't try to force people to be what they are not. And I love stories I can believe in. So I love Kirby's work.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2016 14:26:20 GMT -5
Jodoc - Kirby did one fantastic Medusa Both jodoc and tolworthy's points are very well taken here! Not to mention of her time in the Fantastic Four ... man, this looks really cut the cake here! She one of my favorite characters - Bar None!
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on May 31, 2016 15:06:31 GMT -5
There really needed to be another option for "Depends on What Book You're Looking At", because for every female Kirby drew like this... ...there are females that look like these:
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on May 31, 2016 15:35:29 GMT -5
One thing I can say that Kirby did do well (though I've said it already, but now with a contrast) is that in Sif at least, (since Kirby on Thor is the most I've read of his work) he knew how to draw the body of a woman that was a warrior. Whereas other artists, those know for their curvy women (Choi, Terry Dodson, Salvador Larroca, Adam Hughes) that's all they can do is draw curvy, sexy women, no matter the context of the character. It was hard to imagine Shanna tossing up with Velociraptors and T-Rexs when Choi was drawing a peepshow gal in a fur bikini. imgur.com/a/StrGgSo there is a balance somewhere. And I have as hard of time recognizing Kirby's Medusa or Alica as pretty women as I do Choi's Shanna kicking dinosaur ass. I'm a fan of cheesecake, but, if it's all the same I'd like a balance of female warriors looking pretty at the same time, as looking like actual warriors. Makes me wonder, if it doesn't already exist, just how Kirby would have done with Wonder Woman. Wonder Woman by Kirby: (Am I the only one who looks at this and sees stiff and unnatural poses?) At this point in his career, Jack was taking his work on existing characters a lot less seriously than his work on new characters of his own design. In short, I agree with you, but I doubt this was Kirby's best effort.
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Post by foxley on May 31, 2016 16:20:24 GMT -5
Wonder Woman by Kirby: (Am I the only one who looks at this and sees stiff and unnatural poses?) At this point in his career, Jack was taking his work on existing characters a lot less seriously than his work on new characters of his own design. In short, I agree with you, but I doubt this was Kirby's best effort. If anything, I would consider the work he was doing on his own characters at this point (Captain Victory, Silver Star, etc.) to be even worse.
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Post by foxley on May 31, 2016 16:25:27 GMT -5
Then I am glad I do not live in your world. Most of the women I know (tomboyish or not) do not look like men in drag. I look at Kirby's work and I do not see this 'realism' you do. And I don't see 'sexy', which is what the original question was.
But whether or not Kirby did stories I can believe in is a debate for another thread.
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Post by Icctrombone on May 31, 2016 16:47:56 GMT -5
One thing I can say that Kirby did do well (though I've said it already, but now with a contrast) is that in Sif at least, (since Kirby on Thor is the most I've read of his work) he knew how to draw the body of a woman that was a warrior. Whereas other artists, those know for their curvy women (Choi, Terry Dodson, Salvador Larroca, Adam Hughes) that's all they can do is draw curvy, sexy women, no matter the context of the character. It was hard to imagine Shanna tossing up with Velociraptors and T-Rexs when Choi was drawing a peepshow gal in a fur bikini. imgur.com/a/StrGgSo there is a balance somewhere. And I have as hard of time recognizing Kirby's Medusa or Alica as pretty women as I do Choi's Shanna kicking dinosaur ass. I'm a fan of cheesecake, but, if it's all the same I'd like a balance of female warriors looking pretty at the same time, as looking like actual warriors. Makes me wonder, if it doesn't already exist, just how Kirby would have done with Wonder Woman. Wonder Woman by Kirby: (Am I the only one who looks at this and sees stiff and unnatural poses?) This is just a bad cover all around. But Kirby was not at the top of his game when he did those books. Maybe he needed a stronger inker like Mike Royer or Colletta.
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Post by Icctrombone on May 31, 2016 16:50:13 GMT -5
Remember to vote in the Jamie awards! Todays the last day.
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Post by foxley on May 31, 2016 17:04:05 GMT -5
Wonder Woman by Kirby: (Am I the only one who looks at this and sees stiff and unnatural poses?) This is just a bad cover all around. But Kirby was not at the top of his game when he did those books. Maybe he needed a stronger inker like Mike Royer or Colletta. But according to Tolorthy, my comment that the poses are stiff and unnatural cannot be an objective criticism because this cover is by Kirby and therefore transcends any kind of objective criticism. But apparently it is brilliant because it is 'realistic' (because it is by Kirby), despite the fact that people do not move like that. So you can apparently declare that something is beyond objective criticism, but also declare that it is objectively realistic, regardless of whether it matches up to reality or not.
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Post by Icctrombone on May 31, 2016 17:35:20 GMT -5
I'm okay with Tolworthys man crush for Kirby. I'm a starch Jim Starlin Defender.
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Post by foxley on May 31, 2016 17:44:39 GMT -5
I'm okay with Tolworthys man crush for Kirby. I'm a starch Jim Starlin Defender. I'm okay with his Kirby idolatry, as well. It is a very common attitude in comics fandom, and I am used to feeling like the odd man out because I don't particularly like Kirby. But declaring something to be beyond criticism? That sits less well with me.
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