shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,872
|
Post by shaxper on Jun 6, 2016 22:43:02 GMT -5
Relevant to the discussion is the use of the phrase. Originally, on the radio and in the animated shorts, Superman fought "a never-ending battle for truth and justice". The phrase would later be amended. So "the American way" was added to the radio show during the war, retired after the war and then reappeared on the TV, which debuted in 1952. Because Communism? Just a guess. Exactly where I was going to go. "The American Way" is essentially a meaningless phrase. It's designed to invoke optimism and the highest ideals, all intertwined with nationalistic pride, without really saying anything specific at all. Or, as Richie Havens used to enjoy pointing out, |
|
|
|
Post by Icctrombone on Jun 7, 2016 2:28:09 GMT -5
I remember the first time I saw Superman the Movie and Christopher Reeve said it on screen, everyone cheered.
|
|
|
|
Post by dupersuper on Jun 7, 2016 3:04:18 GMT -5
I can get behind truth and justice. As a Canadian, much of "the American way" scares the hell out of me.
|
|
shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,872
|
Post by shaxper on Jun 7, 2016 5:21:41 GMT -5
I remember the first time I saw Superman the Movie and Christopher Reeve said it on screen, everyone cheered. Well that's the magic of that film -- it makes you believe in all things good and invites you to ignore the harsh realities and cynicism we've learned as adults. What if there really are good guys, and what if America and Americans really are innately good? Reeves' example still encourages me to strive for my own personal goodness, and it still makes me want to believe in our country again (which grows harder with the year). |
|
|
|
Post by tingramretro on Jun 7, 2016 5:32:47 GMT -5
I remember the first time I saw Superman the Movie and Christopher Reeve said it on screen, everyone cheered. Well that's the magic of that film -- it makes you believe in all things good and invites you to ignore the harsh realities and cynicism we've learned as adults. What if there really are good guys, and what if America and Americans really are innately good? Reeves' example still encourages me to strive for my own personal goodness, and it still makes me want to believe in our country again (which grows harder with the year). Why would it do that? Superman is Kryptonian, not American. I've always rather assumed that he was here for the whole world. Still one of the best comics related films ever made, of course. |
|
shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,872
|
Post by shaxper on Jun 7, 2016 5:38:13 GMT -5
Well that's the magic of that film -- it makes you believe in all things good and invites you to ignore the harsh realities and cynicism we've learned as adults. What if there really are good guys, and what if America and Americans really are innately good? Reeves' example still encourages me to strive for my own personal goodness, and it still makes me want to believe in our country again (which grows harder with the year). Why would it do that? Superman is Kryptonian, not American. I've always rather assumed that he was here for the whole world. Still one of the best comics related films ever made, of course. Well of course he is. If it were a British film, they'd have him saying "Truth, Justice, and the British Way" and it would fill you with a weird unwarranted sense of patriotism too. There is nothing inherently American about the Superman concept, but he is an American creation that's been interwoven with "The American Way" for seven decades now. That's quite a track record that multiple generations grew up with. Plus there's the whole subtext of "The Superman" being created by two Jewish kids living safely in America while Hitler was persecuting Jews in the name of "The Superman" in Europe, but that's less of a factor. |
|
shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,872
|
Post by shaxper on Jun 7, 2016 5:46:35 GMT -5
And, actually, I'm not sure Superman would have worked as well with Britain for the simple reason that Americans walked out of WWII feeling like we unquestionably won, while that's certainly not the narrative The United Kingdom has. Since Superman came on the scene around that time, he also carries that sense of indominitable victory and righteousness that America can associate with that one and only period in history -- the one moment we believed we had it all figured out, were all powerful, and were unequivocally on the side of good (much like Superman).
Of course that's not a truly accurate picture, but it's part of our cultural narrative, and Superman speaks to that. He reminds us of the idea that America could be that unequivocally great and just, whether or not it ever factually was. I doubt you were raised with a similar optimism of the UK, as your country clearly lost influence/stature in the wake of that war and hasn't been the empire it once was ever since. We can argue over rights and wrongs, but there's no denying the U.S. become a lot more powerful after WWII, and power combined with a sense of right, but without guilt or fear of consequence, is essentially what's being channeled in the line "Truth, Justice, and the American Way."
|
|
|
|
Post by foxley on Jun 7, 2016 6:01:22 GMT -5
At the risk of an unwarranted generalisation, I think this is an important cultural difference. Americans seem to be able embrace unironic jingoism, and cheer at the idea of being American as if it is some kind of accomplishment in itself. And have this odd belief that everyone in the world wants to be American. As an Australian, I really don't want to live in a country with America's attitudes towards health care, gun control, etc.
I am always puzzled by American talk show where a guest will mention the name of a city/town and the audience breaks out into wild cheers. What are they cheering? The fact that their hometown exists? That a famous person has mentioned it? I'm sure if someone said "I breathed oxygen today. Anyone here breathe oxygen?", there would be wild whoops from the audience.
(My apologies to the many Americans reading this to whom these comments undoubtedly do not apply. My intention was not to stereotype an entire nation, but to comment on a perception of how 'being American' can be viewed overseas.)
|
|
|
|
Post by tingramretro on Jun 7, 2016 6:06:07 GMT -5
Why would it do that? Superman is Kryptonian, not American. I've always rather assumed that he was here for the whole world. Still one of the best comics related films ever made, of course. Well of course he is. If it were a British film, they'd have him saying "Truth, Justice, and the British Way" and it would fill you with a weird unwarranted sense of patriotism too. Actually, I suspect it would just cause most of us to wonder what on Earth he was talking about. We don't really 'do' patriotism on that level here, except during wars or international football matches. Football matches moreso than wars, probably. |
|
shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,872
|
Post by shaxper on Jun 7, 2016 6:10:20 GMT -5
Well of course he is. If it were a British film, they'd have him saying "Truth, Justice, and the British Way" and it would fill you with a weird unwarranted sense of patriotism too. Actually, I suspect it would just cause most of us to wonder what on Earth he was talking about. We don't really 'do' patriotism on that level here, except during wars or international football matches. Football matches moreso than wars, probably. Yep. If you missed my second post, it pretty much disagrees with the first and addresses much of this. |
|
shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,872
|
Post by shaxper on Jun 7, 2016 6:14:32 GMT -5
At the risk of an unwarranted generalisation, I think this is an important cultural difference. Americans seem to be able embrace unironic jingoism, and cheer at the idea of being American as if it is some kind of accomplishment in itself. And have this odd belief that everyone in the world wants to be American. As an Australian, I really don't want to live in a country with America's attitudes towards health care, gun control, etc. I am always puzzled by American talk show where a guest will mention the name of a city/town and the audience breaks out into wild cheers. What are they cheering? The fact that their hometown exists? That a famous person has mentioned it? I'm sure if someone said "I breathed oxygen today. Anyone here breathe oxygen?", there would be wild whoops from the audience. (My apologies to the many Americans reading this to whom these comments undoubtedly do not apply. My intention was not to stereotype an entire nation, but to comment on a perception of how 'being American' can be viewed overseas.) No, I think that's fair. American nationalism isn't much different than being raised in a religious faith. Many of us end up questioning that faith, some of us decide it is illogical and walk away from it, but there's always a small part of us inside that feels lost/empty for having walked away and, thus, the faith can be rekindled in brief emotional moments. That certainly describes me when I see Chris Reeves explain that he fights for "Truth, Justice, and the American Way." I believe in the ideals America was based upon, but I have no idea what "The American Way" is and generally have distaste for politicians who invoke America in an effort to stir up jengoistic fervor. I'm also a borderline agnostic/athiest who gets moved when visiting church with my family. My brain and my heart don't always understand each other. But I do think Nationalism can be a good thing. If you live in a country where the government hears and responds to the voice of the people, then, ideally, you should be proud of the shape that government takes based in some small part on your own personal will, right? I don't think most Americans have a voice in their government at all, but I'd like to believe other countries do. |
|
|
|
Post by tingramretro on Jun 7, 2016 6:18:11 GMT -5
And, actually, I'm not sure Superman would have worked as well with Britain for the simple reason that Americans walked out of WWII feeling like we unquestionably won, while that's certainly not the narrative The United Kingdom has. Since Superman came on the scene around that time, he also carries that sense of indominitable victory and righteousness that America can associate with that one and only period in history -- the one moment we believed we had it all figured out, were all powerful, and were unequivocally on the side of good (much like Superman). Of course that's not a truly accurate picture, but it's part of our cultural narrative, and Superman speaks to that. He reminds us of the idea that America could be that unequivocally great and just, whether or not it ever factually was. I doubt you were raised with a similar optimism of the UK, as your country clearly lost influence/stature in the wake of that war and hasn't been the empire it once was ever since. We can argue over rights and wrongs, but there's no denying the U.S. become a lot more powerful after WWII, and power combined with a sense of right, but without guilt or fear of consequence, is essentially what's being channeled in the line "Truth, Justice, and the American Way." Oh, we also firmly believed that we won the war (and, as a nation, had and still tend to have a deeply ingrained resentment of Americans suggesting they won it, when they clearly arrived two years late to the party after we'd done all the preparation; the attitude of many Brits to Americans during the war was summed up in the famous phrase "overpaid, oversexed and over here", and my five great-uncles never let that go, even thirty years later). The average Brit after WWII also had, I believe, no sense of having "lost stature"; as a kid, I was raised with an unshakeable sense that Britain was still the greatest place on Earth, we just didn't need to shout about it. Overt nationalism is definitely not the British way. Or at least, it hasn't been for a very long time, though it's on the rise at the moment as the EU referendum looms ever closer. |
|
shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,872
|
Post by shaxper on Jun 7, 2016 6:26:33 GMT -5
And, actually, I'm not sure Superman would have worked as well with Britain for the simple reason that Americans walked out of WWII feeling like we unquestionably won, while that's certainly not the narrative The United Kingdom has. Since Superman came on the scene around that time, he also carries that sense of indominitable victory and righteousness that America can associate with that one and only period in history -- the one moment we believed we had it all figured out, were all powerful, and were unequivocally on the side of good (much like Superman). Of course that's not a truly accurate picture, but it's part of our cultural narrative, and Superman speaks to that. He reminds us of the idea that America could be that unequivocally great and just, whether or not it ever factually was. I doubt you were raised with a similar optimism of the UK, as your country clearly lost influence/stature in the wake of that war and hasn't been the empire it once was ever since. We can argue over rights and wrongs, but there's no denying the U.S. become a lot more powerful after WWII, and power combined with a sense of right, but without guilt or fear of consequence, is essentially what's being channeled in the line "Truth, Justice, and the American Way." Oh, we also firmly believed that we won the war (and, as a nation, had and still tend to have a deeply ingrained resentment of Americans suggesting they won it, when they clearly arrived two years late to the party after we'd done all the preparation; the attitude of many Brits to Americans during the war was summed up in the famous phrase "overpaid, oversexed and over here", and my five great-uncles never let that go, even thirty years later). The average Brit after WWII also had, I believe, no sense of having "lost stature"; as a kid, I was raised with an unshakeable sense that Britain was still the greatest place on Earth, we just didn't need to shout about it. Overt nationalism is definitely not the British way. Or at least, it hasn't been for a very long time, though it's on the rise at the moment as the EU referendum looms ever closer. Interesting. Listening to Eddie Izzard, I'd always assumed British nationalism plummeted after WWII ("the Ex Exmpire" as he called it. I don't personally think America won the war on its own or any moreso than The UK did; my point is that we were able to come out untarnished and stronger for it. Therefore it gave us unequivocal pride and a Superman-like feeling of invincible rightness. |
|
|
|
Post by foxley on Jun 7, 2016 6:28:30 GMT -5
No, I think that's fair. American nationalism isn't much different than being raised in a religious faith. Many of us end up questioning that faith, some of us decide it is illogical and walk away from it, but there's always a small part of us inside that feels lost/empty for having walked away and, thus, the faith can be rekindled in brief emotional moments. That certainly describes me when I see Chris Reeves explain that he fights for "Truth, Justice, and the American Way." I believe in the ideals America was based upon, but I have no idea what "The American Way" is and generally have distaste for politicians who invoke America in an effort to stir up jengoistic fervor. I'm also a borderline agnostic/athiest who gets moved when visiting church with my family. My brain and my heart don't always understand each other. But I do think Nationalism can be a good thing. If you live in a country where the government hears and responds to the voice of the people, then, ideally, you should be proud of the shape that government takes based in some small part on your own personal will, right? I don't think most Americans have a voice in their government at all, but I'd like to believe other countries do. There is a scene in Independence Day where the American president shows up and tells what is left of the world's armed forces (who have apparently been sitting around in the middle of a desert doing nothing because there wasn't an American to lead them) how they will save the world, and from this point on July 4th will not only be America's Independence Day, but also the world's. I guessing that scene caused great feelings of patriotism in the US (and was intended to be serious by the filmmakers). When I saw it an Australian cinema, it was greeted by howls of laughter and hoots of derision. |
|
|
|
Post by tingramretro on Jun 7, 2016 6:30:07 GMT -5
At the risk of an unwarranted generalisation, I think this is an important cultural difference. Americans seem to be able embrace unironic jingoism, and cheer at the idea of being American as if it is some kind of accomplishment in itself. And have this odd belief that everyone in the world wants to be American. As an Australian, I really don't want to live in a country with America's attitudes towards health care, gun control, etc. I am always puzzled by American talk show where a guest will mention the name of a city/town and the audience breaks out into wild cheers. What are they cheering? The fact that their hometown exists? That a famous person has mentioned it? I'm sure if someone said "I breathed oxygen today. Anyone here breathe oxygen?", there would be wild whoops from the audience. (My apologies to the many Americans reading this to whom these comments undoubtedly do not apply. My intention was not to stereotype an entire nation, but to comment on a perception of how 'being American' can be viewed overseas.) That's pretty much the perception in the UK, too. It all seems very OTT if you're from pretty much anywhere else on the planet. Americans seem to self identify with their country far more than citizens of many, if not most, European nations. Why, I don't know. But yes, the apparent belief that everyone else must actually want to be American can be irritating. I live in a coastal village near two international ports, which gets an inexplicable number of foreign tourists, and I remember about twelve years back an American guy visting the local pub bitterly complaining about the fact that nowhere he'd been in Britain accepted US dollars, something he'd clearly believed every country in the world did. I suspect that he hadn't travelled abroad a lot, and had watched a lot of sixties Hollywood spy movies. |
|
