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Post by Nowhere Man on Jul 9, 2016 5:58:19 GMT -5
I'm very interested in the concept of magic being an extremely advanced science, and think this is potentially possible in reality if we keep advancing, but this doesn't have to be how it works in a fantasy setting like the Marvel Universe. I much prefer the idea, at least with Marvel, that magic and science coexist in the same reality. It's my one real gripe with the Thor films.
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Post by berkley on Jul 12, 2016 22:31:05 GMT -5
While sharing the general dislike for facile deus ex machina story resolutions, I don't agree at all that creating a set of rules for magic is a good way to prevent them. For me, fictional magic is largely about things like atmosphere, tone, and setting, and giving it an explicit set of rules is almost certain to kill the air of mystery that's essential to it. I even think it was a mistake, for example, to give Dormammu and Umar an origin story: too much detail about their origins can detract from the aura of mysterious power they should be imbued with.
And I don't think a lack of rules is the problem anyway: look at something like The Lord of the Rings: Tolkien didn't give a set of rules that magical practitioners or beings beings like Gandalf or the Balrog had to follow, but that didn't mean their abilities were limitless - far from it.
So it seems to me that the deus ex machina problem is strictly down to the writers, not to a lack of a defined set of rules. The desire for the latter looks to me suspiciously like it derives from what I call the Marvel Handbook mindset, in which everyone's "power level", etc has to be quantified. Perhaps video-game culture has had some influence as well.
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Post by Randle-El on Jul 12, 2016 23:34:02 GMT -5
While sharing the general dislike for facile deus ex machina story resolutions, I don't agree at all that creating a set of rules for magic is a good way to prevent them. For me, fictional magic is largely about things like atmosphere, tone, and setting, and giving it an explicit set of rules is almost certain to kill the air of mystery that's essential to it. I even think it was a mistake, for example, to give Dormammu and Umar an origin story: too much detail about their origins can detract from the aura of mysterious power they should be imbued with. And I don't think a lack of rules is the problem anyway: look at something like The Lord of the Rings: Tolkien didn't give a set of rules that magical practitioners or beings beings like Gandalf or the Balrog had to follow, but that didn't mean their abilities were limitless - far from it. So it seems to me that the deus ex machina problem is strictly down to the writers, not to a lack of a defined set of rules. The desire for the latter looks to me suspiciously like it derives from what I call the Marvel Handbook mindset, in which everyone's "power level", etc has to be quantified. Perhaps video-game culture has had some influence as well. Rules are one way of solving the problem of deus ex machina. The other is simply limiting the use of magic such that rules are unnecessary. In my mind, that's what Tolkien did in LOTR and that's why he didn't need rules. Sure, Gandalf was a wizard but most of the times he was useful to the fellowship because he knew lots of stuff and could swing a sword in battle. It's not as if he was casting spells to ward off orcs and conjuring fireballs left and right. And even besides Gandalf, there was very limited use of magic trinkets or items. The fellowship largely had to rely on their wits and weapons to survive. Most of the pivotal evens in the series are played out without any reliance on magic at all. |
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Post by Action Ace on Jul 12, 2016 23:47:04 GMT -5
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Post by Gene on Jul 13, 2016 0:07:03 GMT -5
This can't possibly get any stupider, can it?
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Post by Nowhere Man on Jul 13, 2016 0:32:38 GMT -5
The Hulk is my favorite character and I hate to say it Marvel...but I just don't care at this point. That's how little I think of what you've been doing for the past decade plus. Personal continuity for the win!
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Post by Action Ace on Jul 13, 2016 0:55:21 GMT -5
This can't possibly get any stupider, can it? It can and it will. I'm not sure how, but humans will find a way! |
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Jul 13, 2016 1:52:15 GMT -5
Creatively speaking, these decades-old Marvel and DC superheroes are at a dead end.
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Roquefort Raider
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jul 13, 2016 6:24:16 GMT -5
While sharing the general dislike for facile deus ex machina story resolutions, I don't agree at all that creating a set of rules for magic is a good way to prevent them. For me, fictional magic is largely about things like atmosphere, tone, and setting, and giving it an explicit set of rules is almost certain to kill the air of mystery that's essential to it. I even think it was a mistake, for example, to give Dormammu and Umar an origin story: too much detail about their origins can detract from the aura of mysterious power they should be imbued with. You, sir, win the internet for the day. Very well said. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jul 13, 2016 12:33:04 GMT -5
Creatively speaking, these decades-old Marvel and DC superheroes are at a dead end. I think you've nailed it. They're just telling the same stories over and over again, but trying to 'take them to the edge'. That event's been done before and been the source of a huge event... and then undone a year later. As I'm sure this will be. I think that's why the continuity thing is important.. using history and legacy can make it easy and organic to take a similiar situation that has happened in the past and give it a fresh take. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Jul 14, 2016 17:25:57 GMT -5
Creatively speaking, these decades-old Marvel and DC superheroes are at a dead end. I think THIS wins the internet for the day. Most of the Marvel characters have done it all. How many times can you battle Galactus or defeat Dr. Doom? |
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Post by String on Jul 14, 2016 17:59:38 GMT -5
This can't possibly get any stupider, can it? {Spoiler: Click to show} I have read one recent theory that suggests that Black Widow could be Tony's real mother
I know, don't give Bendis any ideas!
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Post by Gene on Jul 14, 2016 18:23:56 GMT -5
This can't possibly get any stupider, can it? {Spoiler: Click to show} I have read one recent theory that suggests that Black Widow could be Tony's real mother
I know, don't give Bendis any ideas!
I'd buy that for a dollar. |
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Post by Nowhere Man on Jul 14, 2016 18:30:33 GMT -5
Creatively speaking, these decades-old Marvel and DC superheroes are at a dead end. I think you've nailed it. They're just telling the same stories over and over again, but trying to 'take them to the edge'. That event's been done before and been the source of a huge event... and then undone a year later. As I'm sure this will be. I think that's why the continuity thing is important.. using history and legacy can make it easy and organic to take a similiar situation that has happened in the past and give it a fresh take. My view is that the iconic characters should, more or less, stay forever unchanged with the "illusion of change" thing that's controversial among creators. Some like it, others don't, but when you're dealing with immortal characters who will never die of old age, it's just how you have to play it. That said, ideally, you'd have interesting new characters and concepts coming in that don't take the mantle from the icons, or screw up said icons histories, but instead have their own identity and add without subtracting. This is basically what Lee and Kirby were doing and how it was done when new characters were introduced in the 70's and 80's. Readers stopped accepting new ideas because most of the new ideas simply weren't as interesting. A lot of that, I'd wager, had to do with creators being hesitant to give Marvel and DC their best ideas. Can't blame them. |
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Jul 14, 2016 18:41:07 GMT -5
Creatively speaking, these decades-old Marvel and DC superheroes are at a dead end. I think THIS wins the internet for the day. Most of the Marvel characters have done it all. How many times can you battle Galactus or defeat Dr. Doom? Got that right Iccy. Even the greatest genre authors with the greatest all-time fictional characters, creations such as Sherlock Holmes, The Shadow. Tarzan and more came to realize that at some point you can't keep churning out month after month, for years, decades. half frickin' centuries, stories with the same character concepts with devolving into repeated hack clap-trap. And no amount of window-dressing change could avoid the seen-it, done-it feel. Make the character grow breasts, kill-revive-repeat, ho hum.. they'll just meet their arch enemy once again for the 537th time. The super hero concept is soooo played out. The only thing still keeping it alive is the older fans desperation to recapture the thrill these characters gave them when they were children. |
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