shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Aug 9, 2016 19:39:37 GMT -5
Industry sales figures I have from 1991 show Marvel already holding nearly 70% of the market to DC's 30%. I suspect it happened in 1990, around the time the adjective-less Spider-Man #1 was launched. By the time X-Force #1 launched that summer, Marvel was holding each of the top 13 of the Top 100 comics of the month. Pretty much this. I worked in an LCS while in college (91 -94) and we couldn't give DC titles away, outside of the mega-events like Death of Superman or Bat-crossovers. Most customers' pull lists consisted of X-titles and Spider-Man books, with some folks picking up Marvel solo books (Cap, Iron Man, Thor) and Avengers. It's amazing to me that Batman went from the hottest comic franchise of 1990 to barely being a blip on the radar by the end of 1991. DC was still making money off the franchise and cashing in with as many crossovers, one shots, and limited editions as possible, but it just wasn't grabbing the public's attention in a big way anymore. There were no polybags, trading cards, nor foil covers. |
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Post by The Captain on Aug 9, 2016 20:04:56 GMT -5
Pretty much this. I worked in an LCS while in college (91 -94) and we couldn't give DC titles away, outside of the mega-events like Death of Superman or Bat-crossovers. Most customers' pull lists consisted of X-titles and Spider-Man books, with some folks picking up Marvel solo books (Cap, Iron Man, Thor) and Avengers. It's amazing to me that Batman went from the hottest comic franchise of 1990 to barely being a blip on the radar by the end of 1991. DC was still making money off the franchise and cashing in with as many crossovers, one shots, and limited editions as possible, but it just wasn't grabbing the public's attention in a big way anymore. There were no polybags, trading cards, nor foil covers. My guess is that they felt that Batman would sell himself and that they could put their special marketing efforts into other titles that needed the "collector boost" that the polybags, holofoil covers, and other gimmicks would provide. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Aug 9, 2016 20:53:52 GMT -5
It's amazing to me that Batman went from the hottest comic franchise of 1990 to barely being a blip on the radar by the end of 1991. DC was still making money off the franchise and cashing in with as many crossovers, one shots, and limited editions as possible, but it just wasn't grabbing the public's attention in a big way anymore. There were no polybags, trading cards, nor foil covers. My guess is that they felt that Batman would sell himself and that they could put their special marketing efforts into other titles that needed the "collector boost" that the polybags, holofoil covers, and other gimmicks would provide. That's not how I recall it. It seemed to me that DC tried to take the high road and avoid the cheap hype and collectibility tactics Marvel was utilizing, assuming the whole thing would burn itself out after a while. They didn't get desperate enough to start trying those cheap tactics themselves until the Robin II limited series at the end of 1991, and even that didn't yield the kind of hype and long-term sales they were hoping for. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2016 21:15:14 GMT -5
And when Valiant & Image launched this pushed DC to the #3 slot for awhile. However Marvel's woes in the late 90's & Valiant going out of business helped DC to rebound. DC was at the #4 slot for most of 1992 and 1993 (I track all of this in my Guide to Wizard, the Guide to Comics thread). At one point, I believe Dark Horse was even neck and neck with them. People malign the Knightfall and Death of Superman stunts, but it was survival mode for DC. I did not know this but I am not surprised. For most of the 90's I was reading very few DC & Marvel titles. Valiant had the most titles on my pull list...and I know I tried a lot of other books from other publishers. Right before DC Rebirth it felt like the 90's was repeating itself. For me over the last 50 years DC edges out Marvel 60/40 in my collection. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2016 21:18:41 GMT -5
DC had better sales than Marvel until the late 60's. Then Marvel overtook DC until the mid 80's. I believe Marvel official passed DC sometime around 1971/72 when Amazing Spider-Man overtook Superman for the first time. I believe from that point on Marvel outsold DC until...the mid 90's? Those early 90's issues of X-Force and X-Men sold millions. And Superman was DC's best seller for decades until the late 80's when Batman became DC's best seller.
Was Marvel's best seller Spider-Man or FF back then?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2016 21:26:14 GMT -5
My guess is that they felt that Batman would sell himself and that they could put their special marketing efforts into other titles that needed the "collector boost" that the polybags, holofoil covers, and other gimmicks would provide. That's not how I recall it. It seemed to me that DC tried to take the high road and avoid the cheap hype and collectibility tactics Marvel was utilizing, assuming the whole thing would burn itself out after a while. They didn't get desperate enough to start trying those cheap tactics themselves until the Robin II limited series at the end of 1991, and even that didn't yield the kind of hype and long-term sales they were hoping for. Aside from Spider-Man #1 what books did Marvel release in 1990 that were polybagged or foil covers? None that I could see from looking at Mike's Newsstand for 199o. Now 1991 they both jumped on that bandwagon, but DC did the 5 color variants for LODK #1 in '89 and Marvel did the multi-color polybag covers for Spidey #1 but that wasn't a tactic used regularly by either of the big 2 until '92 and they both went all in on it around that point. If Marvle was going to use that tactic in 1990 they would have used it a sa big push in their Heroes of the 90s publishing initiative which saw launches with #! issues for Namor, New Warriors, Ghost Rider and Guardians of the Galaxy and none of those were polybagged or foil covers. A few got 2nd print variants because they sold out, but that wasn't part of the initial marketing push. So not seeing foil covers or polybags in 1990 by DC isn't surprising, they weren't part of the comic landscape as a regular feature yet, and when they became so, both publishers were equally guilty in using them. Looking over the 1990 output of DC at Mike's newsstand, they seemed to be focused on Batman crossovers (things like Dark Knight over Metropolis in the Superman titles) and putting out as many trades and prestige format books at higher ticket prices for the burgeoning bookstore trade (the first Batman Archives, a couple of new volumes of Greatest (fill in the blank) Stories Ever Told, softcover versions of recent hardcovers,, new hardcover OGNs (like Bamtan Digital Justice the computer generated OGN by Pepe Morenofirs to its kind make sure you get in on the ground floor it's a collectible for $20 marketing hype included), i.e. trying to find new markets for their material which was not surprising at the tail end of the DC Renaissance of the mid-late 80s. It was in '91 and '92 when both publishers seemed to go all in on he direct market and the hardcore fan audience with events, cross-overs, polybags, holograms, foil covers, etc. in 1990 they were still looking at format and content not trade dress as a way to sell books. So I don't see 1990 as Marvel being crassly commercial and DC taking the higher ground based on what product they were actually putting out that year. The following year however... -M |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Aug 9, 2016 22:02:24 GMT -5
That's not how I recall it. It seemed to me that DC tried to take the high road and avoid the cheap hype and collectibility tactics Marvel was utilizing, assuming the whole thing would burn itself out after a while. They didn't get desperate enough to start trying those cheap tactics themselves until the Robin II limited series at the end of 1991, and even that didn't yield the kind of hype and long-term sales they were hoping for. Aside from Spider-Man #1 what books did Marvel release in 1990 that were polybagged or foil covers? None that I could see from looking at Mike's Newsstand for 199o. Now 1991 they both jumped on that bandwagon, The missing piece is X-Force #1, which saw publication two months prior to Robin II and pretty much shook the comic book world with its polybagged 5 trading card variant stunt. According to Wizard, it was the highest selling individual comic book of all time (at least prior to the release of X-Men #1). It's possible Robin II's variant hologram stunt was already in place at this point; I don't know, but X-Force #1 made a far bigger stir than Spider #1, and the five variant covers of X-Men #1 the following year surpassed even that. You're right. You've brought this up before, and I've conceded before that Denny O'Neil's office first pioneered most of the stunts that Marvel was using on a much larger scale by the early '90s. But there was no collecting sensation surrounding the release of the LOTDK #1 variant covers. Even the explanation inside that book depicts the variant outer covers as a sort of after-thought, not particularly encouraging the reader to go out and obtain them all. Whether it's the fault of Marvel, the industry, or the consumer that folks took the Spidey #1, X-Force #1, and X-Men #1 variants far more seriously is a debate I'm not particularly invested in, but regardless, DC tried the tactic once, and Marvel made it their primary sales strategy for 1991 and 1992. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2016 22:07:32 GMT -5
Aside from Spider-Man #1 what books did Marvel release in 1990 that were polybagged or foil covers? None that I could see from looking at Mike's Newsstand for 199o. Now 1991 they both jumped on that bandwagon, The missing piece is X-Force #1, which saw publication two months prior to Robin II and pretty much shook the comic book world with its polybagged 5 trading card variant stunt. According to Wizard, it was the highest selling individual comic book of all time (at least prior to the release of X-Men #1). It's possible Robin II's variant hologram stunt was already in place at this point; I don't know, but X-Force #1 made a far bigger stir than Spider #1, and the five variant covers of X-Men #1 the following year surpassed even that. You're right. You've brought this up before, and I've conceded before that Denny O'Neil's office first pioneered most of the stunts that Marvel was using on a much larger scale by the early '90s. But there was no collecting sensation surrounding the release of the LOTDK #1 variant covers. Even the explanation inside that book depicts the variant outer covers as a sort of after-thought, not particularly encouraging the reader to go out and obtain them all. Whether it's the fault of Marvel, the industry, or the consumer that folks took the Spidey #1, X-Force #1, and X-Men #1 variants far more seriously is a debate I'm not particularly invested in, but regardless, DC tried the tactic once, and Marvel made it their primary sales strategy for 1991 and 1992. X-Force #1 is 1991 not 1990 though. So it's not a missing piece for 1990. New Mutants ended with #100 which went on sale in February of 1991. The cover for Robin #1 would have already been planned and on the way to the printer when New Mutants #100 came out if it came out 2 months after X-Fore #1 because it would have been solicited the month New Mutants #100 came out. Marvel wasn't pushing collectibility or covers any more than DC was in 1990. As I said 1991 was another story, but you say DC was taking the high road and Marvel wasn't in 1990-there's nothing in 1990 except Spidey #1 and there was precedent for that in 1989 from DC. -M |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Aug 9, 2016 22:20:54 GMT -5
The missing piece is X-Force #1, which saw publication two months prior to Robin II and pretty much shook the comic book world with its polybagged 5 trading card variant stunt. According to Wizard, it was the highest selling individual comic book of all time (at least prior to the release of X-Men #1). It's possible Robin II's variant hologram stunt was already in place at this point; I don't know, but X-Force #1 made a far bigger stir than Spider #1, and the five variant covers of X-Men #1 the following year surpassed even that. You're right. You've brought this up before, and I've conceded before that Denny O'Neil's office first pioneered most of the stunts that Marvel was using on a much larger scale by the early '90s. But there was no collecting sensation surrounding the release of the LOTDK #1 variant covers. Even the explanation inside that book depicts the variant outer covers as a sort of after-thought, not particularly encouraging the reader to go out and obtain them all. Whether it's the fault of Marvel, the industry, or the consumer that folks took the Spidey #1, X-Force #1, and X-Men #1 variants far more seriously is a debate I'm not particularly invested in, but regardless, DC tried the tactic once, and Marvel made it their primary sales strategy for 1991 and 1992. X-Force #1 is 1991 not 1990 though. So it's not a missing piece for 1990. New Mutants ended with #100 which went on sale in February of 1991. The cover for Robin #1 would have already been planned and on the way to the printer when New Mutants #100 came out if it came out 2 months after X-Fore #1 because it would have been solicited the month New Mutants #100 came out. Marvel wasn't pushing collectibility or covers any more than DC was in 1990. As I said 1991 was another story, but you say DC was taking the high road and Marvel wasn't in 1990-there's nothing in 1990 except Spidey #1 and there was precedent for that in 1989 from DC. -M I don't have the patience to review all of my previous posts and figure out where I said 1990 specifically, and I'm not sure why you're stuck on that point. The trend began with Spidey #1 in 1990 and was exacerbated with the release of X-Force #1 in 1991, then X-Men #1 after. Again, whether the blame falls on Marvel, the industry, or the consumer, the variant options for Spidey #1 caused a major sensation and drove its sales figures through the roof -- two covers (one metallic), the polybagged option, the second printing, and the chase platinum variant. Compare sales figures and media presence of Spidey #1 and LOTDK #1, and there is no contest. O'Neil's office experimented with a lot of sales gimmicks starting in '88, but these were designed presumably to catch the attention of the casual reader and trigger small sales boosts, not drastically inflate prices by pushing fans and collectors to hoard multiple copies. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2016 22:42:43 GMT -5
My guess is that they felt that Batman would sell himself and that they could put their special marketing efforts into other titles that needed the "collector boost" that the polybags, holofoil covers, and other gimmicks would provide. and even that didn't yield the kind of hype and long-term sales they were hoping for. The point you made was DC was trying to take the high road and not do foil and polybags while Marvel was taking that low road because DC didn't start with that until Robin in 1991, but looking at Marvel's output while they were on the low road and DC on the high road shows neither was actually using polybags and foil cover sin 1990 and both started using them around the same time in 1991, so really there is no high road for DC, they did the same thing at the same time as everyone else. X-Force #1 went on sale in June of 1991 right around the time the Robin II mini would have been solicited, so there's no real gap between when Marvel was using the type of hype you condemn and when DC started using it for there to be a high road DC was taking. You said you recalled it being that way, I was providing release dates and overviews of the material to show your recollection is a little off. The actual release dates of the books don't fit your analysis. -M |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Aug 10, 2016 1:47:33 GMT -5
The point you made was DC was trying to take the high road and not do foil and polybags while Marvel was taking that low road because DC didn't start with that until Robin in 1991, but looking at Marvel's output while they were on the low road and DC on the high road shows neither was actually using polybags and foil cover sin 1990 and both started using them around the same time in 1991, No, I addressed that point in my previous post, my good man. Spidey #1 most certainly had polybags, as well as metallic ink covers, variant covers, and chase covers. It was only one book in 1990, but it was an epic marketing event and not something easily dismissed. So what you're objecting to is my implication that DC took the high road. Maybe that's unfair. It only took them a year to try to imitate Marvel's success with Spidey #1, and I'm sure they were aware of Marvel's plans to repeat that success with X-Force in 1991 (or at least with some #1 title in 1991). It's probably less taking the high road and more not seeing which way the wind was blowing until the storm had already hit. I can agree that no real moral high road is evident until after Robin II, 1992 and the first quarter of 1993, where Marvel is churning out this stuff every other week with little to no regard for the interior content, and DC just kept trying to tell quality stories in response. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2016 2:09:21 GMT -5
Quality is subjective-I see a bunch of gimmick stories with one trick villains created specifically to break characters in events to drive sales and line wide cross-over after cross-over each with a lamer plot throughout the 90s coming out of DC. And as I pointed out the hologram covers had to already be planned an in the works before X-Force #1 hit the plans or they wouldn't have come out at the same time-
Did DC have quality stuff at the time-sure but most of it was stuff that became the Vertigo line and was creator not editorially driven as most of the mainline super-hero fare of DC was in the 90s. I's not because they were trying to manipulate the market with hype or gimmicks though, they did that just as much as everyone else. I am not saying the other publishers weren't guilty-I just don't see DC as being any less a participant in those types of activities or starting later than anyone else.
ow many line wide editorial sales hyped cross-overs did DC do throughout the 90s-Genesis. Final Night. Zero Hour. Armageddon. Eclipso The Darkness Within. Bloodlines. How many everything changes for Batman, Superman, Green Lantern, etc. storylines, how many times was Gotham poisoned, subject to natural disaster etc. so they could cross-over a bunch of books to hype for sales did DC do throughout the 90s? Those are just as much sales gimmicks as covers and polybags and aren't trying to churn out quality stories, those are editors trying to sell as many books as possible by whatever means necessary. Oh and let's run parts of all our Bat-crossover stories into our Showcase '9X books that have what a 6 age Bat story and lots of other mostly garbage to get people to buy those too. DC pandered to the buying patterns of the comic fans just as much as any other publisher in the 90s and the only reason more of that stuff got made is because comic fans ate it up and bought it like no tomorrow-they got what their buying habits deserved from Marvel, DC, Image and every other publisher out there.
DC also threw every and any story they could into a prestige format and hyped it up because prestige format sold because it meant it was an "important" book and it could be the next Dark Knight man, and if not DC could sell it for $5 an issue instead of the 75 cent-$1.50 cover price it would have had as a normal comic. Other publishers followed suit too.
My favorite question I was asked when working in a comic shop in 1989 from a customer who was only one of several who did things like buy 2 copies of the X-Men every month, 1 to read and 1 to bag and board in mint-what color cover of Legends of the Dark Knight #1 do you think is going to be worth the most down the road-I got 5 of each but I want to get an extra 5-10 of the best color? And the worst part-he wasn't the exception-that was the hardcore comic fans buying books at the time, not the speculators who came in later.
No publisher was blameless or taking the high road or only doing it when they got desperate. They were all doing whatever they could to sell as many books as they could from the get go. That's their job.
-M
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Aug 10, 2016 2:26:39 GMT -5
Quality is subjective-I see a bunch of gimmick stories with one trick villains created specifically to break characters in events to drive sales and line wide cross-over after cross-over each with a lamer plot throughout the 90s coming out of DC. There's a difference between creating characters, stories, and events to attract readers, and creating gimmick covers with little to no regard for the interior content. A big difference. And as I pointed out, it didn't take a genius to realize Marvel was going to repeat the success of Spidey #1 with another #1 title the following year, regardless if they knew which title it would be. Much as I've already explained the difference between LOTDK #1 and Spidey #1 previously, let me put it this way: when Apple rebranded the IMac in the late '90s by making it available in a variety of colors, they didn't do this with the expectation that collectors would acquire every color and own a complete set of IMacs. They did it because they believed it would nudge someone on the fence about buying the product if they saw it as aesthetically customizable -- YOU pick the color. And again, the blurb about the exterior cover contained in LOTDK #1 downplays its importance. It was a very different approach than what Marvel did with Spidey #1. And, from my own personal experience, the Spidey #1s were put on display behind the counter of my LCS as soon as they hit stands. The LOTDK #1s were out there on the racks -- grab whichever one you like. I was a stupid kid who bought into all of the hype of the early '90s. I bought two copies of every polybagged comic so I could open one. I had each variant of Spidey #1. I also bought exactly one copy of LOTDK #1 -- the yellow one because I liked the look. There is a line of demarcation between doing what you can to get a hesitant reader to pick up and read your book, and getting a collector to purchase multiple copies of a book whose gimmick was the recipient of more time and attention than its interior contents. I don't blame a company for doing what they can to sell a story, but I do blame a company when it loses sight of the story entirely and encourages fans to do the same. At least DC's infamous final stunts in '93 and '94 were stunts delivered via relatively well-executed stories. Bane and Doomsday were both ridiculous contrivances, but the stories themselves were the recipients of care and quality, and while Batman #500 had a gatefold metallic cover, and Superman #75 came in that black bag, that was only a very small part of the reason people bought them. So there is my point -- DC never lost sight of making it about selling a story, and that was a poor business decision to make in the early '90s, but I respect them for it. And I don't "condemn" Marvel (as you accused me of doing in a previous post). I blame them, but I also blame the fans (including my younger self), hype-generators like Wizard Magazine, distributors, and even LCSes for buying into Spidey #1 and every stunt that came after rather than laughing at it for the absurdity that it was. Sure, it was good business for all involved, but it irreparably cheapened the industry. Anyway, I think we've side-tracked this thread and inhibited others' discussion long enough. Let's get back to the point. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2016 9:41:47 GMT -5
Did some research on comicchron. Superman outsold Batman (except in 1966-67) until 1987 when Batman overtook Superman as DC's top book. Superman outsold Spider-Man until 1976.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Aug 10, 2016 9:52:41 GMT -5
Did some research on comicchron. Superman outsold Batman (except in 1966-67) until 1987 when Batman overtook Superman as DC's top book. Superman outsold Spider-Man until 1976. I'm not surprised that there was an uptick in Batman sales after DKR. I am, however, surprised that those new readers stuck around when they saw that Batman and Detective of 1987 hardly matched that tone and characterization. I would have figured Batman wouldn't have been consistently outselling Superman until 1989 (the Tim Burton film). Then again, I know Byrne's Superman sales were already in decline by mid 1987, so that's part of the explanation right there. |
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