shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Aug 5, 2016 1:28:00 GMT -5
I don't think it's much of a generalization to say that, in the mid-1960s, DC was still treating their books like disposable mindless entertainment while Marvel was building a universe. So when does DC start to show signs of "catching up," with writers contributing stories of substance as opposed to mindless tripe? I know there was Jim Shooter on Legion of Superheroes in 1965 -- was that the start? Was it DC starting to poach Marvel's bullpen? Kirby was 1971, Wein was 1979, Wolfman was 1980, Thomas was 1981, and I'm sure I'm missing others.
Despite the avatar, Pre-Crisis DC is an area of tremendous weakness in my classic comic knowledge.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2016 6:32:53 GMT -5
IMO it started with the Denny O'Neil/Neal Adams Batman...continued with modernizing Superman (WGBS, reducing his powers, etc) & continued thru the 70's as writers started applying Marvel's ideas to DC's characters.
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Post by tingramretro on Aug 5, 2016 6:53:30 GMT -5
There certainly already seemed to be an impression of a cohesive shared universe when I started reading DC, and that was about 1976. It was one of the things that got me interested.
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Aug 5, 2016 9:52:50 GMT -5
There were always individual DC titles of quality here and there in the late silver age and forward. Most times there were just a few or the title was short lived. Many times it had nothing to do with superheroes but rather its war, western or "horror' genre. And sales wise, DC never caught up with Marvel once they relinquished their lead in the very early 70s (except for some individual months here or there, never on an annual basis)
Quality is subjective so there would be no consensus to this question. But, considering the entire lineup of DC, I don't think it happened until shortly after Crisis and into the early 90s. I base the resurgence on 3 things
1-Under jeanette Khan's stewardship DC began to offer its freelancers better royalty rates and other benefits, far superior than what Marvel offered. This was also done to counter the freedoms and benefits the new independent companies were offering
2-Jim Shooter alienated many long-time Marvel veterans such as Roy Thomas, Steve Englehart, John Byrne, Marv Wolfman, Gene Colan etc and DC got the influx of this talent
3-DC reached out to the best of British writers and artists such as Alan Moore, Alan Grant, Brian Bolland and many others. They brought a fresh and mature perspective to DC and helped create the Vertigo line
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Post by MDG on Aug 5, 2016 10:04:11 GMT -5
I think if you look at DC in the late silver/early bronze, they were making an attempts to create books that might appeal to older readers. They just weren't doing it as much in superhero books.
Specifics: The mystery line, Bat Lash, Secret Six, post-legion Adventure, some of the later Showcases, the Kirby B&W books, Shadow...
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Post by Warmonger on Aug 5, 2016 10:24:13 GMT -5
To me it started around '83 when Moore started his run on Swamp Thing.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2016 10:33:58 GMT -5
I don't think the process could even start until the idea of editorial fiefdoms within the DC offices ended because there was no way for a cohesive whole or even tonal or thematic unity to occur, and those were things that defined that Marvel feel. You might see a book or two under one editor experiment with stuff that moved towards the Marvel vibe, but books under another editor were not doing such and wouldn't because that editor didn't want to. The editorial story conferences with writers where the stories were assigned in some offices meant the stories were coming form that editor's vision not an overall DC vision or even a creator's vision. Some writers under some editors may have gotten more leeway, but until the editorial structure at DC was overhauled, a Marvel-like approach was not going to happen, and that didn't happen until the Khan regime was in place and then only gradually.
-M
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Post by tolworthy on Aug 5, 2016 11:33:05 GMT -5
As a non DC reader, seeing the Neal Adams Batman art was the huge change. From a distance there's "before Adams" and "after".
As for super-cool, when DC beat Marvel, from a distance that was 1983 (Swamp Thing) to 1986 (Watchmen, Dark Knight).
Like I said, that's just an ignorant distance view, but that's when DC really hit me.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Aug 5, 2016 12:21:54 GMT -5
I think if you look at DC in the late silver/early bronze, they were making an attempts to create books that might appeal to older readers. They just weren't doing it as much in superhero books. Specifics: The mystery line, Bat Lash, Secret Six, post-legion Adventure, some of the later Showcases, the Kirby B&W books, Shadow... The beginning of the change was when Carmine Infantino took over as Editorial Director and later Publisher and started the Artist as Editor movement that brought in Joe Orlando, Joe Kubert and Dick Giordano as Editors. This was the same time that you finally saw a new generation of writers and artists come to DC rather than the same folk who had, by and large, been there since the 1940s. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Aug 7, 2016 8:59:37 GMT -5
It's when DC received the various creators from Marvel around the 80's that they upped their game. Alan Moore has a big hand in that revolution as well.
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Post by earl on Aug 7, 2016 17:58:56 GMT -5
At least around the comic stores I used in the 80s, none of the DC line sold like anything of the top Marvel series. Teen Titans with Wolfman and Perez was the only title that sold up with the top sellers and it was behind the top books of the day. All of the Marvel series sold better including all the solo titles like Thor, Iron Man, Cap, Daredevil etc. Batman didn't even sell close to the Marvel top 10-12. Legion and then Swamp Thing were probably next on the local pull lists for DC, but they were below everything else by Marvel. People read All Star Squadron and Infinity Inc too, but they were like Moon Knight or some other deeper list titles like Green Lantern. Superman and definitely Wonder Woman or late years Flash barely sold any copies at all.
The Crisis was the changing point in the local stores that I saw. The Dark Knight Returns and Year One started Batman selling good and it was up to a top selling title when Starlin started writing the book. Next summer when the Batman movie came out, I'd say that is when Batman moved up with X-Men as the biggest franchise in comics and has pretty much stayed there. Byrne moving to DC sold a lot of Superman too and it seems they were able to keep that momentum for quite a while after the Man of Steel reboot.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2016 19:03:06 GMT -5
Here's a snapshot of the top 100 comics from The Comics Reader list the month DC announced Crisis (circa Dec 1984 I believe). For added curiosity, this is Dan Didio's copy of TCR and the circled titles are the one he purchased at the time...  as you can see, Marvel dominates the list, but ther eare some surprising DC entries in the top 25 (Vigilante, Infinity Inc. and Omega Men) but I think the list might measure by dolars sold not units moved and those had higher cover pries. It also only refelcts direct sales, not newsstand (and I am not sure if it compiles all distributors of just one-like Capital), so there is likely some margin for error in the list, but it is an insightful snapshot of what was selling at the time. -M |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2016 11:37:40 GMT -5
The Crisis was the changing point in the local stores that I saw. The Dark Knight Returns and Year One started Batman selling good and it was up to a top selling title when Starlin started writing the book. Next summer when the Batman movie came out, I'd say that is when Batman moved up with X-Men as the biggest franchise in comics and has pretty much stayed there. Byrne moving to DC sold a lot of Superman too and it seems they were able to keep that momentum for quite a while after the Man of Steel reboot. I agree this was an exciting time. I was working in a LCS then while I was in graduate college. The buzz around DC was so high then. Great memories! |
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Post by Nowhere Man on Aug 8, 2016 11:37:53 GMT -5
Interesting that Batman and the Outsiders and Batman Special were so high and Batman and Detective were around #50. I'm guessing that this was because of the Jim Aparo and Michael Golden art.
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Post by tingramretro on Aug 8, 2016 11:45:46 GMT -5
Here's a snapshot of the top 100 comics from The Comics Reader list the month DC announced Crisis (circa Dec 1984 I believe). For added curiosity, this is Dan Didio's copy of TCR and the circled titles are the one he purchased at the time... as you can see, Marvel dominates the list, but ther eare some surprising DC entries in the top 25 (Vigilante, Infinity Inc. and Omega Men) but I think the list might measure by dolars sold not units moved and those had higher cover pries. It also only refelcts direct sales, not newsstand (and I am not sure if it compiles all distributors of just one-like Capital), so there is likely some margin for error in the list, but it is an insightful snapshot of what was selling at the time. -M I'm astounded to see an issue of Eagle's Judge Dredd reprint title on that list. The Eagle Comics titles weren't bad, but they weren't generally well regarded here in the UK, being just colourised reprints of old 2000 AD stories. And Didio was buying it...? |
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