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Post by tingramretro on Aug 20, 2016 7:33:28 GMT -5
I have always been a fan of the Golden Age characters of DC Comics, and indeed of Golden Age characters in general, but much of my exposure to them has been in modern (meaning post Silver Age) titles. I have a small collection of genuine GA books and, of course, more than a few reprints, but there are certain characters I've simply never seen in their original GA stories. One of them was the Crimson Avenger, until yesterday, when I came across a reprint of an old Seven Soldiers of Victory story in an early 70s issue of JLA and was frankly repulsed by the artist's depiction of the Avenger's sidekick, Wing. I've never really thought about Wing before, he was just kind of there whenever Roy Thomas or somebody used the Crimson Avenger, usually depicted as looking like a slightly shorter version of the Crimson with his costume colours reversed. So it was rather a shock to see him in this 1940s tale depicted as a gangling, buck toothed caricature of a Japanese person in flapping oversized trunks clearly just intended to make him look foolish, speaking in a bizarre pidgin English. OK, comics during WWII used exaggerated racial stereotypes all the time in order to mock the enemy, but Wing was supposed to be the hero's sidekick! He's even shown acting heroically, in some of the same panels in which the artist is deliberately making him look stupid! Was this really something the American public found funny at the time? Because it's rather soured my appreciation of the characters. I don't think I'll ever be able to look at the Crimson or Wing again without seeing this grotesque strip in my head. And I think that's rather sad.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Aug 20, 2016 8:10:39 GMT -5
It wasn't just the Golden Age.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2016 9:26:45 GMT -5
If you read or listen or watch anything from that time period (comics, books, radio, movies)this is something you have to deal with. It doesn't make it right but you can't change the past. There are still a lot of other great stories out there.
For me even though a lot of readers love Eisner's The Spirit the portrayal of Ebony has always prevented me from enjoying it. So I do not read older Spirit material.
As far as the Crimson Avenger I preferred his earlier portrayal as a Green Hornet pulp style hero instead of the costumed hero...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2016 9:41:17 GMT -5
It wasn't just the Golden Age. Unfortunately it carried over into the 70's with portrayal of black heroes...Luke Cage's first costume & his dialog? "Sweet Christmas". I remember cringing reading some of it.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Aug 20, 2016 9:44:39 GMT -5
As Md62 says, if you're going to read or watch anything from this time-period, you're going to have to deal with it because it was simply a fact of life. It doesn't make it right, it makes it historical fact. And it isn't just comics and it isn't just the Golden Age. There cuts across entertainment media and even into advertising and other areas of life. And it continues, though usually not as blatantly well into the 70s and occasionally beyond. And we can add incredible misogyny that in a lot of ways continues to today.
I view it as an opportunity to view a different time. And I really don't want it white-washed because it hopefully will show people who long for "the good old days" that they were really only good if you were a white, straight male.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Aug 20, 2016 9:53:54 GMT -5
It wasn't just the Golden Age. Unfortunately it carried over into the 70's with portrayal of black heroes...Luke Cage's first costume & his dialog? "Sweet Christmas". I remember cringing reading some of it. Cage is an interesting case study. He was a very clear attempt to exploit the popularity of blaxploitation cinema. And while a lot of people now don't seem to understand it , Sweet Sweetback's Baadasssss Song and Shaft, whatever their faults, were a huge step forward in black directors, writers and actors being able to show their vision to the world. Cage was clearly somewhat tone deaf the writers were generally young and coming from a good-hearted place, as opposed to trying to be offensive. And Billy Graham was one of the few black creators in comics at the time.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2016 9:54:08 GMT -5
As Md62 says, if you're going to read or watch anything from this time-period, you're going to have to deal with it because it was simply a fact of life. It doesn't make it right, it makes it historical fact. And it isn't just comics and it isn't just the Golden Age. There cuts across entertainment media and even into advertising and other areas of life. And it continues, though usually not as blatantly well into the 70s and occasionally beyond. And we can add incredible misogyny that in a lot of ways continues to today. I view it as an opportunity to view a different time. And I really don't want it white-washed because it hopefully will show people who long for "the good old days" that they were really only good if you were a white, straight male. Well said. I agree with you. Unfortunately the trend in culture today is to either overemphasize the bad in our past or gloss over it & pretend it never occurred.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Aug 20, 2016 10:02:41 GMT -5
I was at a conference about the Japanese American Internment during WWII a few years back. One of the activities was for each participant to generate an impromptu presentation on different aspects of that era. I (of course) went the superhero route, first showing this: and then an excerpt from the Fleischer cartoons where Superman apprehends a "Japateur" and calls him "Little Man" before disposing of him. An older woman at the conference immediately spoke up and took issue with me, claiming I'd taken all of this out of context and was missing the terrifying times they were living in. I still mull that one over in my mind -- was she right or not? I guess they didn't have the sense of cultural sensitivity we have now, they were at war, and Japan was an enemy. But then, I think about the Internment itself, how (a few "Kraut" comments aside), Germans didn't get that same depiction in popular media, and no one was rounding them up. So I wrestle with how much of an issue to take with these depictions. Yes, that's just the way it was back then, but that's also how the Internment happened. (note: I'm not saying anyone here is arguing "that's just the way it was back then". I'm more arguing with an opponent who isn't here)
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2016 10:03:23 GMT -5
Unfortunately it carried over into the 70's with portrayal of black heroes...Luke Cage's first costume & his dialog? "Sweet Christmas". I remember cringing reading some of it. Cage is an interesting case study. He was a very clear attempt to exploit the popularity of blaxploitation cinema. And while a lot of people now don't seem to understand it , Sweet Sweetback's Baadasssss Song and Shaft, whatever their faults, were a huge step forward in black directors, writers and actors being able to show their vision to the world. Cage was clearly somewhat tone deaf the writers were generally young and coming from a good-hearted place, as opposed to trying to be offensive. And Billy Graham was one of the few black creators in comics at the time. I understand Marvel was trying to emulate the Blaxploitation in movies at that time but IMO doing a poor job. Later the book became much better. Compare it to the Black Panther's "The Panther's Rage" in Jungle Action at that time which IMO is a classic.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2016 10:28:07 GMT -5
Slam Bradley Sums it up just beautifully and I echo that sediment exactly because these comic books back then were designed for the straight white male looking for dime store novels that gave them great entertainment back then of these colorful, dynamic, and out-worldly characters that fuels there fantasy back then. Those were good ole days of where comic books according to my Grandfather who collect them, barter them, trade them, and anything to get a hand on any comic book back then. To me, there's a Golden Age of Comics that began in the mid to late 30's and ends around in the 50's depending on what your view of the Silver Age of Comics back then. It was a grandiose times of many publication companies back then trying to get an edge of this exciting new venture of which one company from the other trying it best to keep their place in the business itself; back then it was brutal, lawsuits, copyrights of characters, and just the other day learned from Cei-U that I did not know there were a character by the name of Lash Lightning that alone is one of many problems back then because so many characters has similar costumes and names that one company trying to destroy the other because their character(s) were the original and yours is a copycat. It's was a challenging time and grand time of these mythical characters in bold and visionary looks that captured our fancies and I find this era one of my favorite eras of Comic Books because they had 48 and 52 pages of fun reading and they also covers 3-4 characters at a time. A perfect example of that is the Flash Comics #1 a dime store novel that features: Flash - The central character, then ... The Hawkman Johnny Thunder The Whip Cliff Cornwall Back then, every issue you'll have a chance to read 5 characters pretty much on a monthly or bi-monthly basis that gave you great entertainment for 1 thin dime. I just loved those times - I remember going to my local comic store and buying 3 Comics for a nickel and back then without even thinking I got 150 pages of great entertainment for a Nickel and that's why I miss those years and that's why I love that era of Comics Books. I've maybe rambling here and there ... to me it is the greatest era of Comics.
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Post by tingramretro on Aug 20, 2016 12:16:43 GMT -5
It wasn't just the Golden Age. Unfortunately it carried over into the 70's with portrayal of black heroes...Luke Cage's first costume & his dialog? "Sweet Christmas". I remember cringing reading some of it. Thing is, Cage's dialogue I think was just a case of white middle aged writers trying to write a section of society they were unfamiliar with, kind of like the excruciating attempts at teenage slang in some sixties DC's. It wasn't intended to be offensive, whereas I can't see any other reason for the portrayal of characters like Wing or Chop-Chop except to offend.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2016 12:32:39 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2016 12:44:29 GMT -5
I keep thinking about your question & I guess my feelings is if I "love" someone or something I have to accept (not approve) all of them...the good stuff & even the bad stuff.
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Post by Farrar on Aug 20, 2016 12:53:52 GMT -5
...So it was rather a shock to see him in this 1940s tale depicted as a gangling, buck toothed caricature of a Japanese person in flapping oversized trunks clearly just intended to make him look foolish, speaking in a bizarre pidgin English. OK, comics during WWII used exaggerated racial stereotypes all the time in order to mock the enemy, but Wing was supposed to be the hero's sidekick! He's even shown acting heroically, in some of the same panels in which the artist is deliberately making him look stupid! Was this really something the American public found funny at the time? It wasn't just reserved for the real (or perceived) "war antagonist/opponent" either. Take for example Simon & Kirby's Whitewash Jones of the Young Allies, or this sequence from 1944's Sensation Comics #31: I too cringe when I read many of these old comics but as Slam said, it's a way to get a look at a past time. Comics were produced very quickly, there was no months-long lead time (as, say, with movies) and these old books provide a "real time" glimpse into the the prevailing or accepted modes of thought/behavior at the time the books hit the stands.
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Post by tingramretro on Aug 20, 2016 13:07:16 GMT -5
I keep thinking about your question & I guess my feelings is if I "love" someone or something I have to accept (not approve) all of them...the good stuff & even the bad stuff.
I guess so. I think seeing that strip, after having been aware of the character of Wing since the early eighties and never having seen him shown like that, just threw me a bit. It was just strangely disappointing. Possibly because when I got into comics I was reading stuff by people like Steve Gerber, Denny O'Neil, Roy Thomas and Pat Mills and later people like Alan Moore, and I guess I'm just used to thinking of comics creators being slightly more "enlightened" than that...
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