shaxper
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Retcons
Aug 20, 2016 21:35:02 GMT -5
Post by shaxper on Aug 20, 2016 21:35:02 GMT -5
I started with Death in the Family too, #428 specifically. I don't know -- much as I HATED the idea of bringing Jason back from the dead, his characterization and drive made complete sense to me. And when Winnick finally told the story the way he wanted to, free of interference in the animated Batman: Under the Red Hood movie, everything made a LOT more sense. If you haven't seen it, I highly recommend it, and I am not a consumer of the DC direct to video animated films in general. I hated Jason coming back, but it was done really really well except when editorial got involved. Would have loved to have seen where Jason's arc would have gone if One Year Later hadn't gotten in the way. I will check to see if it is on Netflix. Sadly, it is not. |
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Retcons
Aug 20, 2016 21:41:36 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by adamwarlock2099 on Aug 20, 2016 21:41:36 GMT -5
As far as Jason Todd goes, in my defense, Death in the Family was my introduction to the character. A TPB I managed to obtain at Six Flags in the early 90's before I ever regularly bought comics several years later. And I built back from that story with Starlin's run. I've read some before that outside of Starlin, but I'm almost positive I've never read a pre-COIE Jason Todd to have much of a view in him outside of his character shortly before his death. And like md mentioned in his post, I hated him coming back as a vindictive dick mad at Batman and willing to kill because that didn't seem to be the character I read. I started with Death in the Family too, #428 specifically. I don't know -- much as I HATED the idea of bringing Jason back from the dead, his characterization and drive made complete sense to me. And when Winnick finally told the story the way he wanted to, free of interference in the animated Batman: Under the Red Hood movie, everything made a LOT more sense. If you haven't seen it, I highly recommend it, and I am not a consumer of the DC direct to video animated films in general. I hated Jason coming back, but it was done really really well except when editorial got involved. Would have loved to have seen where Jason's arc would have gone if One Year Later hadn't gotten in the way. Ive seen it. And to be honest I hated his depiction more so in it than the comics. I always saw Jason as boisterous, reckless and even hot headed, but it just seemed off to me, after all his sacrifice to help and save another life if it meant his own, from a mother that abandoned him, but he wouldn't have turned into someone as despicable as he was portrayed in that movie. To me it was too out of character. |
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,874
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Post by shaxper on Aug 20, 2016 21:43:02 GMT -5
I started with Death in the Family too, #428 specifically. I don't know -- much as I HATED the idea of bringing Jason back from the dead, his characterization and drive made complete sense to me. And when Winnick finally told the story the way he wanted to, free of interference in the animated Batman: Under the Red Hood movie, everything made a LOT more sense. If you haven't seen it, I highly recommend it, and I am not a consumer of the DC direct to video animated films in general. I hated Jason coming back, but it was done really really well except when editorial got involved. Would have loved to have seen where Jason's arc would have gone if One Year Later hadn't gotten in the way. Ive seen it. And to be honest I hated his depiction more so in it than the comics. I always saw Jason as boisterous, reckless and even hot headed, but it just seemed off to me, after all his sacrifice to help and save another life if it meant his own, from a mother that abandoned him, but he wouldn't have turned into someone as despicable as he was portrayed in that movie. To me it was too out of character. Jason was intensely focused to the point of having tunnel vision and had an attitude of the ends justifying the means. Thus I felt his motives were very appropriate. It was a lot more interesting and true to the character than being out for revenge or a personal vendetta. Did you ever read the two Batman issues just prior to Death in the Family? Those are the ones that really show how this depiction fits.  |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2016 21:46:57 GMT -5
Based on the discussion about Jason Todd (& OMD)....retcons will stink if they are editorially driven.
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,874
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Retcons
Aug 20, 2016 21:48:40 GMT -5
Post by shaxper on Aug 20, 2016 21:48:40 GMT -5
Based on the discussion about Jason Todd (& OMD)....retcons will stink if they are editorially driven. Oh, abso-frickin'-lutely. |
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Retcons
Aug 20, 2016 21:56:26 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by adamwarlock2099 on Aug 20, 2016 21:56:26 GMT -5
Shax, yes I have. But perhaps I need to read them again. I will do so tomorrow and post my thoughts. Also is Under the Red Hood where ... Jason forces Bruce to kill Joker and if he doesn't Jason will kill Bruce? I want to make sure I'm remembering the right movie I'm expressing hate for :-) md62 ... If you have Netflix's DVD service it is available. I just checked. |
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,874
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Retcons
Aug 20, 2016 21:58:07 GMT -5
Post by shaxper on Aug 20, 2016 21:58:07 GMT -5
Shax, yes I have. But perhaps I need to read them again. I will do so tomorrow and post my thoughts. Also is Under the Red Hood where ... Jason forces Bruce to kill Joker and if he doesn't Jason will kill Bruce? I want to make sure I'm remembering the right movie I'm expressing hate for :-) Yes. |
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Retcons
Aug 20, 2016 21:59:36 GMT -5
Post by Spike-X on Aug 20, 2016 21:59:36 GMT -5
Jason Todd is such an odd example. Max Allen Collins' retcon was, other than in name, and entirely new character, so it was possible for me to LIKE both characters even while resenting the loss of the old one. And I loved what Mike W. Barr did with him in Detective, but that didn't really align with either version of the character. Barr's version was basically Dick Sprang-era Dick Grayson, but with a different name. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2016 22:00:18 GMT -5
Good: DC creating Earth 2 to explain their Golden Age characters.
Bad: Revival of Jean Grey.
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,874
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Retcons
Aug 20, 2016 22:43:04 GMT -5
Post by shaxper on Aug 20, 2016 22:43:04 GMT -5
Jason Todd is such an odd example. Max Allen Collins' retcon was, other than in name, and entirely new character, so it was possible for me to LIKE both characters even while resenting the loss of the old one. And I loved what Mike W. Barr did with him in Detective, but that didn't really align with either version of the character. Barr's version was basically Dick Sprang-era Dick Grayson, but with a different name. It was far more intricate than that. The Dick-Sprang-era Dynamic Duo was the surface, but both Bruce and Jason were holding in explosive grief and pain that came to the surface almost once per issue. They used the Atom-Age campiness as a way of coping with the pain and checking their rage. It was a brilliant marriage of classic and modern Batman. |
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Retcons
Aug 20, 2016 23:01:21 GMT -5
Post by Prince Hal on Aug 20, 2016 23:01:21 GMT -5
Was the Joker's first origin a ret-con or simply an origin tale? You decide. In any case, if it was a retcon, it was a good one.  The Killing Joke nearly was a good one. Loved the twist, which was sort of a ret-con, at the end of The Great Darkness Saga involving a baby. (Trying not to spoil.) Bad Idea and Worse Execution: America vs. the Justice SocietyBad: Green Arrow kills crooks with arrows. Good: Batman finds his parents' killer. (Maybe not a retcon, but an excellent amendation.) Bad: The Joker is the killer of Batman's parents. Not official, I guess, but was mistaken for canon by many non-comic-reading movie fans. Bad: Krypton was a cold, angular, forbidding planet. Bad: The Kents get younger. Good: Much of Cooke's New Frontier. |
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,874
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Post by shaxper on Aug 20, 2016 23:36:51 GMT -5
Bad: Krypton was a cold, angular, forbidding planet. Or, in Byrne's words, it "deserved to blow up." Yeah, absolutely seconded. |
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Retcons
Aug 21, 2016 3:32:42 GMT -5
Post by Icctrombone on Aug 21, 2016 3:32:42 GMT -5
Bad: Tony Stark , in one of the earlier meetings of the original Avengers, took a strand of Thors hair to eventually make his clone in Civil War.
Bad: The Black Panther initially joined the Avengers to spy on them.
Good: Wally Wests parents were not the perfect people depicted in New Teen Titans issues but rather his mom was a nag and his father was a sleeper agent for the Manhunters.
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Retcons
Aug 21, 2016 4:55:14 GMT -5
Post by tingramretro on Aug 21, 2016 4:55:14 GMT -5
Bad: Vision is not the original Human Torch after all. But he is. He's simply a temporally divergent version of the Torch. |
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Retcons
Aug 21, 2016 4:57:55 GMT -5
Post by tingramretro on Aug 21, 2016 4:57:55 GMT -5
In past history of this forum - I was told that Amazing Man was not a Golden Age Character but a Silver Age Character instead being a member of the All-Star Squadron. The problem with me I get frustrated when I was told by a fellow reader and/or a member of this forum that this story is a retcon. It's makes me mad and that alone makes me cry because it's not following any script and/or continuity. The older I get - I stay away from Imaginary Stories that's often retcon itself and that's not good for me at all. So, right now I'm sticking with stories that keeps the continuity alive and well. How is adding something to continuity not "following" continuity or keeping it alive and well? Amazing Man was really Bronze Age rather than Silver Age, by the way. |
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